[20v] 7A vs 3B C/R Head chambers, now head games

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The 35-40 cc still sounds too small for the combustion chamber volume in a
stock head Javad, unless the valves are sitting way up (i.e. the seats have
been cut high, & probably narrow, in the head, causing the valve faces to
sit further out in the chamber) in their seats or something.  Depending on
what the piston might yield for additional static volume, if you use 35 to
37 ccs as the head volume, and a compressed gasket thickness of 1.6 to 1.7mm
I come up with:

Static Volume Range:
    35cc in the head + (1.6 * 5.152778) for the gasket, assuming its bore to
be 82mm = 43.244 cc static
    40cc in head + Gasket 1.7 * 5.12778) = 48.759 ccs static volume
exclusive of piston dish

43.25 to 48.76 cc's of static volume puts the CR range in the 11.3 to 1 to
10.1 to 1 area.

I haven't got a measurement for an AAN piston, but they have pretty flat
tops, and I doubt the valve reliefs add much to the static volume.  I don't
know that you can find another 5+cc's in the piston dish that one would need
to get the CR down to the factory stated 9.3 to 1, but maybe its there.

Well here's hoping some one else may have some additional grist for the
mill.  If I recall correctly, the factory AAN motors, or at least the early
ones, didn't come standard with the steel head gaskets did they?

Do we have any opinions on what differences in height, if any, there might
be between the use of the steel head gasket and the original material?  Same
installed crushed heights?  Every mm ='s 5.15 cc's in additional static head
volume and each 5 cc's is equal to roughly 1 full point in terms of final
CR.

I do know that the two local shops that did both the TAP head and the ported
head were asked, and claim they paid extra attention to doing the valve jobs
on the heads, i.e. supposedly a lot of attention was to be paid in
maximizing the diameter of the valve seats.  That might explain some of the
additional static head volume.

Mike

  -----Original Message-----
  From: JShadzi at aol.com [mailto:JShadzi at aol.com]
  Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 6:28 PM
  To: mlped at qwest.net; ackramer at hotmail.com
  Cc: brogers at terrix.com; 20V at audifans.com; 200q20v at audifans.com;
avangerb at zoo.uvm.edu; b.benz at charter.net
  Subject: Re: [20v] 7A vs 3B C/R Head chambers, now head games


  Mike, the few heads I've ever tested ran just under 40cc, in the 35-40cc
range, this being only the comb. chamber itself with valves in place.
Usually its difficult to test the cc of a head with HG in place as its so
easy to calculate mathematically.  If your heads have been ported as much as
you say, and have had comb. chamber polishing, etc, then your 45+cc figures
make sense.  The only stumper is that TAP head, the fact that it doesn't
look like the comb. chambers have been touched, but the fact that it
measures up to known modified comb. chambers makes me believe that it has.
Also yes, typcial compressed HG thickness is usually about 1.6-.7 mm or so.

  Javad

  <<<<Alan -

  Recently I had occasion to have three Audi 20v head's cc'd.  Two of the
  heads, the ones which I own,  are of "known" AAN origin.  Both these have
  been "ported" by different parties.  One I inherited on an engine was done
  under the auspices of TAP for the cars prior owner.  I mention this as I
  regard ANYTHING done by, or under TAP's auspices as potentially suspect.
  When I say "ported" by TAP, my guess is that no one at TAP actually did
the
  porting.  My guess best guess is the head would have been subcontracted
out
  by TAP to someone, probably in Florida, but I really don't know.

  FWIW, the other head was worked on by a local shop here in Denver.

  Last, the third head, the origins of which are less certain, had a fresh
  valve job, but otherwise no porting.  Visually this head looked like it
had
  been shaved, but again, I don't know for certain.  One possibility is the
  head was in fact originally a 7A or a 3B since it had been machined to
retro
  fit a cam position sensor for use in an AAN UrS4 application.
Unfortunately
  I didn't ask the shop to try to figure out a deck height comparison
between
  the heads, if that were even possible.  At the time I thought that given
the
  stock 7A's higher compression ratio (? 10.? to 1 vs. the AAN/3B's stated
9.3
  to 1) it sort of made sense that the suspect 7a head would look like it
had
  been shaved but....

  In every case, the static chamber volume measured for every head was,
  according to the shop, at least 45cc's.  I'm now a bit puzzled by how you
  come up with 37ccs (http://www.geocities.com/audikramer/) for the 4 valve
  per cylinder Audi heads and wondering if the shop that cc'd my heads is
all
  wet.

  Now, FWIW the TAP head was "critically" examined by the shop that did the
  porting on the other hand, and the comment was "Well, looks like there was
a
  lot of grinding etc. in the intake & exhaust ports, but not much was done
  in, or too the combustion chamber (i.e. everything south of the valves.)
  Therefore one might be justified in speculating that the TAP head in fact
  represents a fairly "standard" stock combustion chamber for purposes of
  estimating static compression volumes.  2nd, FWIW here are the numbers we
  can up with for static head chamber only compression volume (in CC's &
cubic
  inches):


  Cyl
  #    Finley ?? 7A     TAP's AAN P&P    RR Colo P&P Head
  1    45.0    9.89        46.2    9.64        49.2    9.05
  2    44.2    10.07        46.0    9.68        49.2    9.05
  3    44.0    10.12        46.0    9.68        49.6    8.98
  4    44.6    9.98        46.7    9.53        49.4    9.01
  5    45.6    9.76        46.4    9.59        49.6    8.98

  "Range of
  Variation"    1.60    0.36        0.70    0.15        0.40    0.07

  Average    44.7    9.97        46.3    9.62        49.4    9.01

  Stock AAN Engine    2226.0
    Cylinder    445.2

  445.2/45 = 9.893    each 1mm = @ 4.452 cc's
  445.2/46 = 9.678

  In the other FWIW, guesses, if you use the 7A's 2.3 liter numbers (82.5mm
  bore x 86.4mm stroke right?) => 2.309.31cc / 5 = 461.46 cc per cylinder,

  461.46/45 = @ 10.26 CR subject to gasket thickness, deck height & piston
  dish/cuts?
  but pretty close to what you would expect from the 7A yes/no/maybe?

  One other poster on the issue, Keith Lloyd, tossed out two figures for a
  10valve WR rebuild, i.e:

  Gasket thickness:  1.7   ?mm
  Piston/deck        0.508 ?mm

  I've assumed Keith's numbers are in mm's.  If his figures for the usual
20v
  head gasket are right, total 1.7+0.508 = 2.208 x @4.4452 cc per mm = + at 9.8
  cc's to the engines static volume, then using my, apparently now
erroneously
  measured 45 to 46 measured cc's less that additional static volume for the
  head gasket, suggests your figures 37cc or less would be a better number
  apply to the AAN etc heads as a stock static combustion chamber volume.

  But, .... is 1.7mm for a compressed AAN head gasket a reasonable number?

  Mike Pederson>>>>






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