No Start : 3B.TIMING & ECU Q's

Tue Mar 9 16:00:01 PST 2010

A couple of more points;

The timing belt must be adjusted drum tight on these 20V engines  
because of the higher inertia of the twin cams.

You could have lost a tooth on the plastic distributor gear if it  
hasn’t been replaced with metal by now. If the distributor rotor has  
play, that’s the problem. If so, I can email my dist gear replacement  
and retiming instructions. As Ben said, dist timing has to be exact.

Pull the codes! Make an LED code light for doing so. And DFWAB!  
(Don’t fix what ain’t broke!)

Bernie

On Mar 9, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Ben Swann wrote:

> Stan,
>
> That the car stopped in traffic gives us a bit more info. to help  
> you.  Recap on problem
> and suggestions in prior emails below.
>
> First off - don't start by throwing money at the problem.  Do some  
> methodical
> trouble-shooting and you'll nail down the problem.  Try to do as  
> much as you can before
> throwing in the towel and spending a lot at a mechanic.
>
> Try what I suggested below - verify timing belt is correct,  
> distributor/hall adjusted
> properly.  Most of this can be done with very few tools - for  
> example, the engine can be
> turned over by pushing back and fourth in higher gear - third is good.
>
> Keep the top part of timing belt cover off until you have this  
> figured out.
>
> If it is not the coil, then some things that can be the problem:
>
> Ignition key - sometimes they fail to provide power to ignition  
> portion - the switch has
> 2 or 3 connections to various subsystems in the car, so lights may  
> be on, and engine
> cranks, but the ignition circuit could be failing.  This can be  
> intermeittant and hard
> to track down.
>
> Hall signal is going out of window.  This can even be cause by belt  
> slop - I have seen
> cars start when cold, but not when hot and vice versa since the  
> hall is not adjusted in
> the middle but off to the side.  So the contracting of the belt  
> moves the cam a bit and
> throws the distributor off.  I have seen this in 3 cars and I'm not  
> a mechanic by trade,
> so that is high percentage.
>
> Anyway - you need to have both flywheel sensor signals and hall  
> signal in the correct
> syncronized order for there to be ignition primary ( and fuel pump  
> trigger).  If you are
> missing any signal, or it is not at the proper time, then you have  
> a no start.
>
> Is there a way for you to pull codes - that really helps to find  
> the problem much
> quicker.  You are more or less shooting in the dark without a code  
> scanner.  Maybe
> someone has one around, or you can find a local mechanic who won't  
> gouge you to read the
> codes.
>
> If you lost a flywheel pin, then the car will not get the crank TDC  
> ref. signal. No
> Start.
>
> Keep track of trouble-shooting steps so you can at least give a  
> rundown to the lister
> willing to help.
>
> Ben
>
>
> [From: Stan Evans(stanevans3 at gmail.com)
>
> Subject: Re: Thank you for Quattro123.com...do you know anyone in  
> the Philly So NJ area
>
> Hey Steve:
>
> Thanks for taking the time to send me the email.
>
> Actually, the car suddenly died on me 90 miles from home and had to  
> be towed, which was
> the beginning of the discovery/learning process.
>
> It appears that the only way to check the ECU is to plug it into  
> another 91 Audi 200 20v
> to see if it starts. I found a used ECU for sale at Shokan for $800  
> and another one at
> Force5 for $350. Being laid-off and tight on cash, I can't just  
> throw money at something
> to HOPE that is the problem.
>
> That is why I am hoping I can plug my ECU into a functioning 20v to  
> see if it works or
> not. Any thoughts?
>
> I really appreciate everyone's help with this.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stan ]
> ________________________________
>
> From: Ben Swann [mailto:benswann at verizon.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:08 PM
> To: 'Ben Swann'; stanevans3 at gmail.com
> Subject: RE: Scott sent me!
> Stan,
>
> Steve Mills mentioned the next thing that came to my mind.  If you  
> have everything else
> correct, but the wires are off, the car will produce spark, but not  
> start.
>
> You need to first go back and double, triple check timing belt is  
> proper.  Do not rely
> on dimple on front belt cover - verify TDC using the flywheel  
> mark.  I often need to put
> a rod down #1 spark hole and turn engine by hand until the rod is  
> at it highest point -
> then the mark should appear and you can mark the harmonic balancer  
> if it indeed slipped.
> If you can get someone to help, that will speed things up immensly.
>
> Once you validate TDC is DEAD ON - I repeat DEAD ON.. then you can  
> get the timing belt
> adjusted properly.  Once you have timing belt/water pump locked  
> down, then verify hall
> window is exactly in the middle of window - per BENTLEY manual.  If  
> you need
> clarification on this let me know.
>
> Once you have all these things properly verified and lined up and  
> wires in correct
> position, then the car should fire right up.  If you hear the fuel  
> pump kick, then the
> engine is trying to make spark.  No fuel pump sound means no  
> primary ignition pulse - go
> back to square one.
>
> If you hear the pump, but no start, then check wire position.   
> Wires out of position
> will not gen a code.
>
> My tip to checking ignition starts with taking the coil wire off  
> the cap and attaching a
> spark plug and grounding the casing using a large alligator clip or  
> jumper cable or vice
> grips.  You can then see all five sparks if they are being produced.
>
> HTH
>
> Ben
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Ben Swann [mailto:benswann at verizon.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 2:55 PM
> To: stanevans3 at gmail.com
> Cc: 'Ben Swann'
> Subject: Scott sent me!
>
> [SnIP]
>
> What codes came up on the no start?  If no codes, then may be a bad  
> coil.  A bad ECU
> would not have registered with  VAG-COM or whatever scanner you  
> used, or would have
> reported many codes that don't make sense or possibly just faulty  
> ECU.  If ECU was
> talking to VAG-COM and no codes came up,  then most likely you have  
> a bad ignition coil.
>
> I'll need more specific details of what is going on.  We can try  
> swapping ECU, but it
> does not sound like the problem - not unless there is some info.  
> that points to it. I
> re-read the post and says you tried the coil.
>
> Need more info!   Best I can ascertain the last thing you did was  
> replae the timing belt
> or make related adjustments.  The hall distributor could be out of  
> window, but that
> should have thrown a code.
>
> Ben
>
> [From: Stan Evans &lt;stanevans3 at gmail.com&gt;
> To: SuffolkD at aol.com
> Sent: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 9:04 am
> Subject: Thank you for Quattro123.com...do you know anyone in the  
> Philly So NJ  area
>
>    Hi:
>
> My name is Stan Evans and I have a 91 Audi 200 20v that I picked up  
> last year.? This is
> my sixth Audi (3 different '90 200 Qs, 90 Coupe Q, 93 Audi CS  
> Wagon) and now finally a
> 200 20v.
>
> First of all, THANK YOU so much for the valuable info on your  
> site.? I was able to
> change the timing belts (it was off TDC), double check the  
> distributor, replaced the
> original fuel pump, replaced the starter, and learning about the ECU.
>
>
> Here is the situation...the Audi is not producing any spark from  
> the Ignition Coil.? I
> have ran the codes, ran the other basic checks from the combination  
> of your site,
> Bentley's Manuals, and http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/ <http:// 
> www.sjmautotechnik.com/>
> .? At one point I did get spark from the ignition.? A couple days  
> went by and I tried
> again and then no spark.? UGH!? I ran some of the tests on the  
> ignition and supposedly
> according to Bentley's the ignition coil was bad.? Simple replace  
> and nothing.? !@$%^
>
> Anyway, I thought that before I spend money to see if it is the  
> ECU, I could see if
> there are any local owners of 91 Audi 200 20v Q that I could  
> quickly have us either plug
> my ECU into their car to see if it starts, or plug their's into my  
> car.? The ECU in my
> car appears to have been accessed at some point.? There is no  
> plastic baggy around it,
> and someone wrote a name on the underneath the ECU.
>
> So do you know of anyone local I could perform this quick and  
> simple test with?? If not,
> could I send my ECU up to you and the other guys at Quattro123 to  
> see if you can plug my
> ECU into one of your cars?
>
> I have been driving around in my clunker Jeep and I think the  
> tranny is about to go in
> it.? I really appreciate your help with this.
>
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Stan Evans
> 310-403-5774]
>
> _______________________________________________
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