[Biturbos4] Turbos Reliability & Replacement Cost

[j y]

Quincy,

You pose some interesting scenarios for current and potential S4 owners. Quite frankly, it's an individual's choice based on personal taste, life style, ya-da, ya-da. Personally, I plan on keeping my S4 for fairly long period of time (I'm currently 5 yrs into the car - original owner). In fact, I might be the guy that you were thinking about with respect to STOCK (K03) turbos dying @ 52k mi. I've posted my story here and on AW (AudiWorld) many times for NOOBs.
 
In my opinion, the 2.7T S4 will become a collector's car because of its limited production run (MY 2000-02) and it appears that Audi will not equip cars other than the RS4, RS8 series with the bi-turbo engines in the future (and currently). To me, the cost of my current mods (AWE DPs, AWE Twin2 exhaust, GIAC-X chip, AWE ICs, 18 inch wheels, M3 lip soiler, RS4 bumper) are worth it. The future cost of upgrading to K04 turbos (I already have most of the necessary plumbing to accomadate the bigger turbos - need upgraded fueling)  are also worth the INVESTMENT in my S4. 
 
If you view your 2.7T S4 as a rare breed, then the cost of upgrades and repairs (timing belts, control arms, turbos) are sunk cost, but worth the FUN you will have with a car that can keep pace (and beat) with any non-turo Porsche. I don't believe that a K04 upgrade is as expensive as u state ($6k USD), unless u purchase the parts from an expensive vendor and let an Audi dealer do the install. Now days, the cost is probably closer to $4500 USD for a K04 install. The price of the hardware has come down from a few yrs ago. To me, for the potential power (400+ HP - and I have a Tip - which yield lower HP nbrs) upgrade, $4500 is a CHEAP price. Try and purchase (or upgrade) a Porsche, Viper, or newer Audi for that price. 
 
With respective to your comment about VAG-COM for custom tuning. VAG-COM doesn't provide you with the ability to change fueling, rpms, timing, and lamda regulation.  So, it is not considered a TUNING tool - it's a DIAGNOSTIC tool. If you want to do some custom tuning - use Lemmiwinks - it's free (VAG-COM cost USD $200+). The best bet is to use BOTH together.
  
Quincy Chiang <b5quattro at shaw.ca> wrote:
Hi Grant, JY and all,

This has been an interesting and informative discussion. From what I've read and heard on these list and AW forums, it seems like luck has more to do with the turbos failing than anything else. Obviously chipping kills them a lot sooner, and people they have chipped their 2.7t should realize that, but even non-chipped car are not safe from it either. Someone on this list 2 weeks ago (sorry I forgot who) had his turbos bit the dust at the tender age of 52k miles, and he supposedly followed all the usual procedures like proper warmup, cooldown and uses synthetic oil, and his car wasn't chipped.

So we've established how and why the turbos fail (ok maybe not, it still seems more like a black art), my next question is how many owners are actually willing to shell out $7500 Cdn ($6000 USD) to replace those pesky K03s when they meet their maker?

Based on the above and maybe one other recent failure cases (both cars not chipped), lets say the turbos die at somewhere around 55,000 miles (~88,500km), right now I'm more than half way there, and I expect to get there within 3 years. At that mileage, I'd definitely have the timing belt job done while the engine's out, and perhaps replace the clutch as well, so that'd bring the total to nearly $10,000 Cdn ($8000 USD). But here's the kicker, why would you put in K03s and you can get K04s for just a little more money? It makes sense from the reliability perspective, and I'm not one to refuse some extra power. But once you do that, it quickly snowballs into other things to get a decent stage 3- setup, like K03 chip/software, higher fuel pressure regulator, MBC, exhaust and maybe downpipes. Then you'll need some custom tuning with a VAG-COM, which can be fun and/or frustrating at the same time.

The thing is that once the turbos die, you now must replace them just to get the car running, otherwise the car's worthless, can't even sell it. And once you've committed to turbo swap (either straight K03s or a stage 3- setup), you better keep the car for a long long time to recoup the cost.

So now with all that in perspective, how many here thinks they have no problem going down this road in say 2-3 years? Personally I'm having a tough time justifying this potentially hugh expense, especically when I expect to get my own place in a year's time. I'd like to hear your opinions and comments.

Quincy
'01.5 S4 - keep or sell?
'90 CoupeQ - not going anywhere
'05 MCS - sitting at the dealer's lot calling my name...


----- Original Message -----
From: Grant 
Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:00 am
Subject: Re: [Biturbos4] 2000 S4 Running Hot

> This is probably very good info, but nothing is that clear-cut.
> ALL turbos are delicate and fail. S4 engine bays run hot. Oil 
> cokes 
> at turbo temperatures. QED.
> 
> Its not only the early ones, although I do understand that the oil 
> feed/drain plumbing was undersized and thus jy is (to the best of 
> my 
> limited knowledge, I dont have the statistics - no one does) 
> largely 
> correct.
> 
> Grant
> On Aug 29, 2005, at 11:41 PM, j y wrote:
> 
> > R,
> >  
> > I mentioned in my msg to you last night - ONLY THE EARLY S4s 
> (like 
> > mine) had the risk of catastrophic turbo failure. It had NOTHING 
> to do 
> > with the TYPE OF OIL USED - It had to do with a POOR turbo 
> design (the 
> > oil inlets and ducts were too small thus restricting oil flow 
> and its 
> > cooling ability) that was corrected in the MY 01.5 (2001.5) S4s. 
> So, 
> > early S4s that experienced catastrophic turbo failure under, or 
> just 
> > beyond the warranty period, were given UPGRADED (K03) 
> replacements by 
> > AOA.
> >  
> > YOU NEED TO FIND OUT WHEN YOUR S4 WAS BUILT. The build date 
> should be 
> > on the side of the driver door. The build date on my S4 was 
> 11/99. It 
> > was sold as a MY 2000 S4. I CLEARLY own an EARLY S4. There is no 
> need 
> > for you to purchase K04s unless you plan to siginificantly 
> modify the 
> > power, like I said in my msg to you. I hope this helps clear 
> things up 
> > for you.
> >
> >
> > r harout wrote:
> >> so let me ask a question (nervoulsy)
> >>
> >> How likely is it that I was have catastrophic turbo
> >> failure if the car has only run with regular oil--but
> >> chnaged frequently?
> >>
> >> Inevitable? What are the signs? I will use Mobil 1
> >> moving forward, but the owners before me did not.
> >>
> >> Maybe I should order the K04s now so I get them in
> >> time for failure!
> >>
> >> --- Grant wrote:
> >>
> >> > Agreed. Cool is actually not good. The only
> >> > regular failures I know
> >> > of are turbo-related failures in which the oil
> >> > coked. Coking takes
> >> > place WAY above 200deg. If you find differently,
> >> > please contact the
> >> > steel industry - they want your technology badly.
> >> > As to "how hot"?
> >> > the flash point for mobil1 is >400deg (F).
> >> >
> >> > Admittedly, the hot underhood temperatures
> >> > contribute to this, but I'm
> >> > nto sure how much it improves things to extract the
> >> > heat to the
> >> > radiator, which then blows the heat through the
> >> > engine bay, which .....
> >> >
> >> > So who's had a turbo failure that ran synthetic,
> >> > cooled down after hard
> >> > runs, and warmed up in the cold?
> >> >
> >> > Anyone?
> >> >
> >> > And who's had a ring job under ANY circumstances.
> >> > Anyone?
> >> >
> >> > Grant
> >> > On Aug 29, 2005, at 2:53 PM, costco wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > A lot of research has been performed with regards
> >> > to cylinder wear vs.
> >> > > coolant temperature in the 70's and 80's amongst
> >> > the automakers.
> >> > >
> >> > > 192 degrees F is actually optimal in most engines.
> >> > More or less is
> >> > > application specific. I would never put a 160
> >> > degree thermostat into an
> >> > > engine that prior had a 180 degree thermostat. In
> >> > many EFI systems that
> >> > > alone could cause the engine to run in open-loop
> >> > "warm up" mode,
> >> > > running
> >> > > excessively rich and ignoring the oxygen sensors
> >> > for short and long
> >> > > term
> >> > > fuel maps.
> >> > >
> >> > > I know the biturbos run 'hot' but IMO effort would
> >> > be better spent
> >> > > finding
> >> > > a way to get more hot air out of the engine bay
> >> > than trying to get the
> >> > > thermostat to open earlier. The biturbo RS4 has an
> >> > extended bellypan
> >> > > that
> >> > > covers some of the transmission-- this bellypan
> >> > section is obtainable
> >> > > from
> >> > > the dealer for around $120. It wouldn't take much
> >> > to get it to bolt up
> >> > > behind the stock bellypan, and I would definitely
> >> > give it a try as I
> >> > > wanted to before getting rid of my B5. I never got
> >> > around to doing it.
> >> > >
> >> > > The low pressure area there will probably greatly
> >> > help pull air through
> >> > > behind the front tires.
> >> > >
> >> > > If you have a little more money to toss around I'd
> >> > consider
> >> > > retrofitting
> >> > > the RS4 oil cooler into the system.
> >> > >
> >> > > Next I'd eliminate the foglights, elongate the
> >> > slits in the front
> >> > > wheelwells to promote more air through the
> >> > intercoolers, and replace
> >> > > some
> >> > > of the front lower center grill area with
> >> > something freer flowing yet
> >> > > would still provide some protection from rocks
> >> > hitting the a/c
> >> > > condenser.
> >> > >
> >> > > - Keman
> >> > >
> >> > > On Mon, 29 Aug 2005, Greg Amy wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> efficient. After all, we're not talking about
> >> > mid-60's
> >> > >> muscle cars here; these things run fine on 180F
> >> > >> thermostats.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> GregA
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > Biturbos4 mailing list
> >> > > Biturbos4 at www.audifans.com
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> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
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