[Biturbos4] Turbos Reliability & Replacement Cost (was: 2000 S4 Running Hot)

Tue Aug 30 18:15:57 EDT 2005

Rohan,

Enjoy your S4. I wouldn't get get/hope/wish for K04 turbos until your warranty runs out. I can tell you from personal experience that Audi wil NOT pay (under the warranty) to install K04s in your S4. The slight "dentist drill" sound is typical of turbo wear - but NOT failure. I've had the "dentist drill" sound when they fail - it's an UN-GODLY sound - u KNOW something is wrong!

There is a dramatic difference btw stock - chipped - and K04 powered S4s. Each step takes powah to a higher level. Quite frankly, a stock B5-S4 is now UNDERPOWERED for North American performance car market - in my opinion.

With the E46-M3 @ 330+ HP, Infiniti G35s @ around 300 HP, Pontiac GTO @ 350+ HP, B6-S4 @ 340 HP, etc. A 250 HP performance sedan is kinda of a joke. Your basis Acura/Honda sedan produces those nbrs. That's why I chose to mod my S4 to stage 2++ (the extra "+" denotes upgraded intercoolers). Based on my VAG runs, I'm somewhere around 330-340 HP, depending on the day (turbo car performance is impacted by humidity, air density, etc. which change on a daily basis). My current set-up is where the B5-S4 should have been out of the factory in MY 2000.

Like I said, I see K04s in my future and I'm willing to pay the price relative to buying a new B7-S4 (normally aspirated cars don't give me wood), new M3 (8 cyl version?), or Mercedes AMG. Any car that will yield K04 performance in an B5-S4 would be north of $60k in terms of cost. Upgrading to K04s is DIRT CHEAP in comparison - just my $.02.

Rohan Singh <rohanj_singh at yahoo.com> wrote:
The discussion about turbo failure always gives me the
jitters after hearing the mileage at which S4 owners
experience this! I bought my 2001 S4 with a build date
of July 2000 in August last year in Toronto with 78K
kilometres - not miles. The car now has 103K
kilometres and the turbo's sound fine except for a
slight "dentist drill" sound when under load between
1500 - 2200 rpm - I don't really remember hearing this
sound for the first few thousand kilometres after
buying it, but again I am beginning to get to know my
car a lot more after tuning in to this forum and
perhaps I wasn't paying attention before. I can't hear
any sound at very low rpms or above 2200 RPM. I have
no idea how the car was driven by the first owner but
the car was in great condition and completely stock
when I bought it from an Audi dealer with the 2 year
certified warranty. I have kept the car stock and
changed the oil (synthetic) every 4000 kilometres
since 78K. The car runs beautifully and I enjoy
driving it every single day - never fails to give me a
rush! I always warm up and cool down. I keep wondering
at what point I am going to experience turbo failure.
I do know that if the cost of replacing a turbo is
around $7K Canadian and this happened after my audi
assured warranty expired next July, I would go ahead
and do it. Just the taxes on a new audi A4 (lets say
50 grand after really loading it up) come close to 60%
of that cost! I feel that the styling is timeless and
that it will go down as an Audi classic. Does anyone
know about the total cost of upgrading to to a full
package for the K04's (turbo's, chip, exhaust,
etc.)and if there are any independent shops in Toronto
that do this kind of work? If my turbo's go, they had
better do so before my Audi Assured warranty expires
next summer! Maybe I should just drive my car hard for
the next few months hoping that they will die out
before the warranty expires!

Rohan
'01 S4 Manual

--- Quincy Chiang wrote:

> Hi Grant, JY and all,
> 
> This has been an interesting and informative
> discussion. From what I've read and heard on these
> list and AW forums, it seems like luck has more to
> do with the turbos failing than anything else. 
> Obviously chipping kills them a lot sooner, and
> people they have chipped their 2.7t should realize
> that, but even non-chipped car are not safe from it
> either. Someone on this list 2 weeks ago (sorry I
> forgot who) had his turbos bit the dust at the
> tender age of 52k miles, and he supposedly followed
> all the usual procedures like proper warmup,
> cooldown and uses synthetic oil, and his car wasn't
> chipped.
> 
> So we've established how and why the turbos fail (ok
> maybe not, it still seems more like a black art), my
> next question is how many owners are actually
> willing to shell out $7500 Cdn ($6000 USD) to
> replace those pesky K03s when they meet their maker?
> 
> Based on the above and maybe one other recent
> failure cases (both cars not chipped), lets say the
> turbos die at somewhere around 55,000 miles
> (~88,500km), right now I'm more than half way there,
> and I expect to get there within 3 years. At that
> mileage, I'd definitely have the timing belt job
> done while the engine's out, and perhaps replace the
> clutch as well, so that'd bring the total to nearly
> $10,000 Cdn ($8000 USD). But here's the kicker, why
> would you put in K03s and you can get K04s for just
> a little more money? It makes sense from the
> reliability perspective, and I'm not one to refuse
> some extra power. But once you do that, it quickly
> snowballs into other things to get a decent stage 3-
> setup, like K03 chip/software, higher fuel pressure
> regulator, MBC, exhaust and maybe downpipes. Then
> you'll need some custom tuning with a VAG-COM, which
> can be fun and/or frustrating at the same time.
> 
> The thing is that once the turbos die, you now must
> replace them just to get the car running, otherwise
> the car's worthless, can't even sell it. And once
> you've committed to turbo swap (either straight K03s
> or a stage 3- setup), you better keep the car for a
> long long time to recoup the cost.
> 
> So now with all that in perspective, how many here
> thinks they have no problem going down this road in
> say 2-3 years? Personally I'm having a tough time
> justifying this potentially hugh expense,
> especically when I expect to get my own place in a
> year's time. I'd like to hear your opinions and
> comments.
> 
> Quincy
> '01.5 S4 - keep or sell?
> '90 CoupeQ - not going anywhere
> '05 MCS - sitting at the dealer's lot calling my
> name...
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Grant 
> Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 4:00 am
> Subject: Re: [Biturbos4] 2000 S4 Running Hot
> 
> > This is probably very good info, but nothing is
> that clear-cut.
> > ALL turbos are delicate and fail. S4 engine bays
> run hot. Oil 
> > cokes 
> > at turbo temperatures. QED.
> > 
> > Its not only the early ones, although I do
> understand that the oil 
> > feed/drain plumbing was undersized and thus jy is
> (to the best of 
> > my 
> > limited knowledge, I dont have the statistics - no
> one does) 
> > largely 
> > correct.
> > 
> > Grant
> > On Aug 29, 2005, at 11:41 PM, j y wrote:
> > 
> > > R,
> > >  
> > > I mentioned in my msg to you last night - ONLY
> THE EARLY S4s 
> > (like 
> > > mine) had the risk of catastrophic turbo
> failure. It had NOTHING 
> > to do 
> > > with the TYPE OF OIL USED - It had to do with a
> POOR turbo 
> > design (the 
> > > oil inlets and ducts were too small thus
> restricting oil flow 
> > and its 
> > > cooling ability) that was corrected in the MY
> 01.5 (2001.5) S4s. 
> > So, 
> > > early S4s that experienced catastrophic turbo
> failure under, or 
> > just 
> > > beyond the warranty period, were given UPGRADED
> (K03) 
> > replacements by 
> > > AOA.
> > >  
> > > YOU NEED TO FIND OUT WHEN YOUR S4 WAS BUILT. The
> build date 
> > should be 
> > > on the side of the driver door. The build date
> on my S4 was 
> > 11/99. It 
> > > was sold as a MY 2000 S4. I CLEARLY own an EARLY
> S4. There is no 
> > need 
> > > for you to purchase K04s unless you plan to
> siginificantly 
> > modify the 
> > > power, like I said in my msg to you. I hope this
> helps clear 
> > things up 
> > > for you.
> > >
> > >
> > > r harout wrote:
> > >> so let me ask a question (nervoulsy)
> > >>
> > >> How likely is it that I was have catastrophic
> turbo
> > >> failure if the car has only run with regular
> oil--but
> > >> chnaged frequently?
> > >>
> > >> Inevitable? What are the signs? I will use
> Mobil 1
> > >> moving forward, but the owners before me did
> not.
> > >>
> > >> Maybe I should order the K04s now so I get them
> in
> > >> time for failure!
> > >>
> > >> --- Grant wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Agreed. Cool is actually not good. The only
> > >> > regular failures I know
> > >> > of are turbo-related failures in which the
> oil
> > >> > coked. Coking takes
> > >> > place WAY above 200deg. If you find
> differently,
> > >> > please contact the
> > >> > steel industry - they want your technology
> badly.
> > >> > As to "how hot"?
> > >> > the flash point for mobil1 is >400deg (F).
> > >> >
> > >> > Admittedly, the hot underhood temperatures
> > >> > contribute to this, but I'm
> > >> > nto sure how much it improves things to
> extract the
> > >> > heat to the
> > >> > radiator, which then blows the heat through
> the
> > >> > engine bay, which .....
> > >> >
> > >> > So who's had a turbo failure that ran
> synthetic,
> > >> > cooled down after hard
> > >> > runs, and warmed up in the cold?
> > >> >
> > >> > Anyone?
> > >> >
> > >> > And who's had a ring job under ANY
> circumstances.
> > >> > Anyone?
> > >> >
> > >> > Grant
> > >> > On Aug 29, 2005, at 2:53 PM, costco wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > A lot of research has been performed with
> regards
> > >> > to cylinder wear vs.
> > >> > > coolant temperature in the 70's and 80's
> amongst
> > >> > the automakers.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 192 degrees F is actually optimal in most
> engines.
> > >> > More or less is
> > >> > > application specific. I would never put a
> 160
> > >> > degree thermostat into an
> > >> > > engine that prior had a 180 degree
> thermostat. 
=== message truncated ===

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