[Es2] 3B vs. AAN
desmond auld
desauld at hotmail.com
Wed Feb 18 13:19:46 EST 2004
Hi people I am new to this mail list and have been diverted here from a 20VT
forum. This subject 3b v ann is just what i want to know! I have looked at
the posts and there seems to be lots of very smart people here that no a
20VT inside out. I hope you can help a newbe with some questions i have and
give me some good advice. I have always wanted a fast URQ. To me fast means
400-500 bhp.
I have got a 84WR that needs a little body attention parked at my garage. I
fitted new (hydraulic shop) oil cooler lines as the old ones where duff and
got the old girl running. She had been sleeping for 4 years. I haven’t drove
the car more that a few hundred yards but already got a bit of a four wheel
drift going on, on gravel. These cars are class!
Anyhow a 20VT is what I want under the bonnet of my URQ. I have been looking
for the right one for a while now, and two have came at once! I have the
option of a more expensive late model s6
ANN of a earlier 3B. I have looked through etka and found that the crank,
and rods are different. The rods are weaker on the RR/3B I believe. And the
ANN has the spark on plug system and the 3B has a dissy.
Basically I need to know what is the ultimate tuning potential of both
engines, before you need to get into changing rods and other expensive
stuff. I want the car for track days and fast road use. I see on this forum
that the stock rods give problems over 450 bhp. Maninly due to high torque
in the mid range. I could live with stock rods to save cash and stick to
400-450 bhp at the top end. I would be using a complete stand alone ECU
package. I have also just got a new garret GT30R ball bearing turbo that is
good for 500bhp. Im not a great fan of the older technologies that are KKK
26/27. Obviously a custom exhaust manifold will be used. I want reliable
power.
How much more is a ABY/ADU/ANN engine worth as compared to a RR/3B. Eg twice
as much, 50% more?
My previous experience is with 1.9TDI engines. I have one in my Mrk2 golf
with 200 BHP. I built that car myself and its quite fast, spanking impretzas
etc on a dry day. But even with a quaife it is a nightmare on a wet road.
Hence the need for a 4WD for me.
I relise its the torque that does the damage. So if i get the ECU to hold
the boost back in the mid range to keep torque at the safe range and then
let boost rise at the top end to keep the torque flat that will give me the
high bhp at the top end. What is the max safe RPM for these engines. EG
could you make 500nm at say 7000rpm safely?
I am inclined to go with the cheeper RR/3B engine and then use the coilpacks
and cam cover from a ABY to kill any problems with the spark. As long as i
limit torque and therfore BMEP i should be safe. The cash saved on the RR
over the ABY would be usfull for injectors/intercooler etc.
So questions i still need answers to are:
1.Are 3B rods softer than ABY/ANN rods?
2.What is the failure mechinisim of the rods? Bending?
3.What is the maximum safe RPM of the stock 20VT. The Hydrolic tappets are
limited to about 7500, yes?
4.What cams would you use to keep torque limited to about 400 ft/lb 550n/m
at peak and say 450-500n/m at 7000rpm?
5.Would the head need ported and or big valves to support this?
6.Would ARP/Raceware studs help hold the rods together at high rpm, eg
7000+?
Thanks all for your help!
>From: Steve Eiche <seiche at shadetreesoftware.com>
>Reply-To: seiche at shadetreesoftware.com
>To: desmo888 at comcast.net
>CC: es2 at audifans.com
>Subject: Re: [Es2] 3B vs. AAN
>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:43:58 -0800
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>Dave,
>I would not agree with this at all. I assume that you are looking to put a
>20V into a B2 (4kq, ur q) or B3 (CQ or 80/90q), using a 3B from a '91 200q,
>or AAN from a '92-95 S4/S6. I done or helped with conversions on both
>types on six different cars, from purely stock 20Vts to full race setups.
>From a performance standpoint, the AAN has greater potential right out of
>the box. It already has the better bearings, a stouter block (little known
>fact), and the more advance engine management system than the 3B. If you
>plan on a performance rebuild of the engine (most of these have pretty high
>mileage now, so it's not a bad idea) and replacing the rods and bearings,
>etc., the only advantage the AAN will have mechanically is the slightly
>better block, and perhaps the nicer timing belt tensioning system. There
>are 20Vt engines out there running over 500hp WITH distributors (though not
>with Motronic injection), so I wouldn't say that the distributor is
>necessarily the limiting factor, unless you stay with Motronic, which most
>of us would do.
>
>The AAN will cost alot more to convert to fit in an early car. First off
>you have the intake manifold which will interfere with the radiator in the
>side mount radiator cars, necessitating the change to late S2 (ABY) or RS2
>(ADU) intake, or one of the aftermarketing intakes, like the Wagner Tuning
>or MTM intakes. These intakes also require a different fuel rail, as the
>AAN rail in not compatible. Then you have the plumbing from the intake to
>the intercooler. If you use the ABY or ADU manifolds, you will need the
>matching tubes or fabricate your own. The Wagner Tuning manifold requires
>lots of tweaks, like drilling/tapping the fuel rail bosses, welding on a
>throttle cable bracket, etc. It also has no provision for an ISV, so you
>will need to add the port somehow if you want idle control. With any of
>the manifolds, you will need to lengthen/modify the TPS and IAT sensor
>wiring to fit the new TB location if you use the AAN harness.
>
>Next is the water manifold on the head. The AAN water manifold has the
>fittings designed for the front mount radiator, and is not easily modified
>to work on a side mount rad. This means that you need the 3B/ABY/ADU/RR
>(20V ur q) water manifold.
>
>Accessory belt. The AAN uses a serpentine belt setup. This is not easily
>adapted to the early cars, mostly because of the accessories, so most
>people convert the crank pulley to a V belt setup.
>
>Wiring. The AAN harness is very different in layout than the 3B harness,
>meaning a lot more labor to get the wires where they need to go. I can
>convert a 3B harness to be "plug and play" in about 10 hours. The AAN
>harness takes twice that time, and requires lengthening wires, etc., which
>is a real PITA. For those that haven't done it before, multiply those
>times by four. Having the ABY or ADU harness would greatly reduce the time
>and effort.
>
>Flywheel/clutch: If you are putting the engine in a B2 car with an 016
>transmission, you need the 016 flywheel, like that of the '91 200q. The ur
>qs have the timing pin 2 degrees off from the later 10V turbos, so you
>really want the lighter 200q flywheel. If you are using an 01A (CQ/80/90q)
>transmission, you can use the stock flywheel from the car or the S4/S6 dual
>mass flywheel with the appropriate clutch. The timing pins are in the
>right place on any of the later flywheels, so you do not have to worry
>about that.
>
>What would I recommend? If you want an AAN in your car, try REALLY hard to
>find ADU or ABY parts (water and intake manifolds, harness, plumbing, etc.)
> used in Europe. You can find this stuff quite regularly on ebay.de, and
>many of the sellers will ship to the US. Watch out though, as fraud is
>much more common there. I've gotten complete junk a couple of times.
>There are also some suppliers that commonly ship to the US outside of
>Europe if you look. I'm not going to give away _all_ of my secrets here.
>
>There are some other "detail" issues, but that is the major stuff.
>
>Quick overview:
>AAN: slightly better performance with relatively simple mods, more money,
>more effort
>3B: cheaper and easier, takes a bit more to "beef up"
>
>HTH!
>
>Steve
>
>desmo888 at comcast.net wrote:
>
>>Very little as long as you have all the elecronics and harness...
>>
>>Dave K.
>>
>>
>>>What are the main transplant issues concerning choosing 3B versus AAN?
>>>
>>>Pat
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