what effect does strut-tower brace have on '88 80 Quattro? (a nd > > other stuff)

[Kaklikian, Gary]

How true!
I've been using about -1.5 deg camber , about 1 deg caster, and 0 toe in the
front on my 4000tq for combined street/track use (with street tires). Even
moving the subframe around, we could only get a bit more caster, but at
least we were able to even out the two sides.   I don't think there is any
way to get more caster on the 4000 without some aftermarket upper strut
plates.  I'm going to try to get a bit more negative camber  for use with
competition tires by slotting the control arms more.

Also, like you say, stiffening the front springs, swaybar, etc to reduce
roll really reduces the load on the front tires.  The blue UrQ upper strut
mounts and urethane swaybar-to-subframe bushings (and possibly endlinks) are
relatively inexpensive fixes. 
 
What impact do you think widening the front track versus the rear track
would have on the balance of the car?  I know many people do this slightly
by fitting spacers to the front hubs to clear calipers, but I'm considering
widening the front track by 20mm to get some wider Kumho's to clear the tie
rod ends.
(I'd rather not widen the rear as well because then I have to worry about
fender clearance all around rather than just in front, and custom offset
wheels are not cheap).
 Conventional wisdom is that if you use a wider tire in the front than in
the rear you will reduce understeer, but what if the tire sizes are the same
but the front track is widened? Seems to me this would be detrimental to
turn-in.

You hit the nail on the head when you describe the Quattro driving technique
-- slow in , late apex, fast out!

Gary Kaklikian
86 4ktq
92 S4


> ----------
> From: 	Larry C Leung[SMTP:l.leung at juno.com]
> Sent: 	Tuesday, July 17, 2001 11:52 AM
> To: 	Chris.Darringer at schwab.com
> Cc: 	quattro at audifans.com; tessmc at drizzle.com
> Subject: 	Re: what effect does strut-tower brace have on '88 80
> Quattro? (a nd > > other stuff)
> 
> Alot of tire problems are more alignment based than particular tire/car
> based. On Audis (particularly stock older ones with struts) the roll is
> signficant, and strut suspensions cannot compensate (in tire alignment to
> the pavement) for the roll. So the only solution is to set the front
> camber to be quite negative (> - 1.5 degrees) so that when the body
> rolls, the tire still remains perpendicular to the pavement instead of
> riding on the outside shoulder. Another trick is to add + caster, which
> may be difficult on a 4KQ or CGT, possibly a bit easier on a type 44 with
> it's built in camber plate. On a 4K, you'd probably have to bump the
> subframe forward to gain any caster. 
> 
> The other problem, is carrying in too much speed to the turns, or
> powering in too early with the steering wheel still cranked over (i.e.
> can you say, UNDERSTEER!?!!?). Try apexing later and braking sooner,
> you'll be able to apply more effective power when the tire is not riding
> on it's shoulder, and you'll be smoother and faster, too. Having raced a
> different VAG product with the same basic traits, you'll have to trust me
> on this. Driven smoothly, you'll actually have a whole lot more exit
> speed which is really fun, and your tires will survive a whole lot
> longer, which means less $$$ and more speed. Sounds fun to me!
> 
> LL - NY
> 
> On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 09:38:56 -0700 "Darringer, Chris"
> <Chris.Darringer at schwab.com> writes:
> >Tess,
> >
> >As you already know, I am having a very similar tire chunking problem 
> >with
> >my '90 80q.  I don't think I have a solution to the problem, but I 
> >wanted to
> >record some of my observations on some of the variables that may be
> >involved.
> >
> >I used to have 195 60 14s on my car (Pirelli P6000 Sport Veloce), with 
> >a 320
> >treadwear rating.  I never had a chunking problem with these tires 
> >after
> >almost 70k miles.  I then bought 205 50 15s (Dunlop Sport 8000s) and 
> >by the
> >third track event both front tires were down to cords.  I now have 205 
> >55
> >15s (Goodyear Eagle F1 steel) with a 320 treadwear rating, and I have 
> >some
> >very minor chunking but otherwise no major problems.
> >
> >I still think there is some fundamental cause in the suspension of 
> >this car,
> >but the only thing I can conclude from my experience is that lower 
> >tire
> >profile and softer tire compounds may be contributing factors.
> >
> >What about the tires themselves?  I don't think the make of tire has
> >anything to do with this.  Many people on this list and in the Q club 
> >are
> >using the tires we destoryed without similar problems.
> >
> >What about the suspension?  Well, you have a lower suspension than I 
> >do, and
> >a larger sway bar, and the problem persists.  I had my suspension 
> >looked
> >over several times, and even though the car has 166k on the odometer, 
> >there
> >were no obvious problems with worn bushings, etc.  I described the 
> >problem
> >to a local Audi tuner who has a very good reputation for tuning 80s 
> >and 90s,
> >and his recommendation was to install Koni coilovers.  He didn't seem 
> >too
> >enthusastic about the larger sway bar idea, claiming that the stock 
> >bar was
> >big enough.
> >
> >What am I going to do?  Stick with 55 profile tires with relatively 
> >high
> >treadware ratings.  Maybe some day I will get frustrated by the 
> >performamce
> >limitations of doing this, but by then I will have saved up enough 
> >money to
> >buy a new Audi.
> >
> >Chris
> >'90 80q
> >
> >
> >> From: "Tessie McMillan" <tessmc at drizzle.com>
> >> To: "Quattro at Audifans. Com" <quattro at audifans.com>
> >> Subject: what effect does strut-tower brace have on '88 80 Quattro? 
> >(and >
> >> other stuff)
> >> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 11:18:59 -0700
> >>
> >> Hi listers!
> >> 
> >> All these problems I've had with street (and now competition) tires 
> >on my
> >> Quattro 	at SIR -- where I chunk JUST one tire: the right 
> >front --
> >have
> >> started me thinking about any more things I can do to stiffen the 
> >front of
> >> my car to even out tire wear. I have to admit I learned to drive on 
> >a
> >> ...
> >> Does anyone have any comments on this? I DO have Blaufergnugen's 
> >22mm
> >>
>