quattro digest, Vol 1 #3118 - history repeats, now about Hydrogen (mAC)

Larry C Leung l.leung at juno.com
Sun Mar 17 15:33:49 EST 2002


1) Hydrogen and Oxygen do not SPONTANEOUSLY react. The do need (a little)
activation energy, usually a high temperature spark (though even a 451
degree F spark would do fine, i.e. paper). 

2) Balloons are unlikely to go BOOM unless there was sufficient oxygen
inside the balloon too. Same with Hindenburgs, which had multiple
hydrogen filled balloons attached to the rigid aluminum airframe (hence
the name diRIGIble) to provide lift. The reason for the separate hydrogen
sacs was that if one leaked, the remaining sacs would be there to provide
lift. The outer skin of the ship was aluminized cloth to provide an
aerodynamic and visually appealing surface. It was also ventilated to
prevent the build-up of potentially combustible hydrogen gas (kinda like
the battery of a type 44, MAC) and to provide cabin space and
recreational room (these really were "airships") for the passengers.
Helium wasn't used for airships until the late 30's to early 40's when it
became economically feasible to extract it from the air. Note a helium
airship cannot be as large as a hydrogen ship, and it can not pick up
near as much mass, due to a density that is 4 times as much as hydrogen.
That is why modern day blimps do not waste weight on rigid airframes
(though Carbon Fiber could help here), nor are they designed to be lived
in, the whole blimp is filled with helium and if you could find enough
oxygen in there, you'd still sound like Donald Duck when you talked.
Instead Blimps have a much smaller "gondola" for the limited number of
passengers that they carry.Helium is comparatively difficult to extract
from the air, Hydrogen, as I described in an earlier post is much easier
to procure from water. For example you probably did electrolysis in
Middle School Physical Science if not in High School Chemistry though
typically to get the oxygen involved rather than for the hydrogen.

LL - NY

BTW - Helium IS Inert (it's a noble gas) except at EXTREMELY elevated
temperatures (i.e. plasma)

>Reply-To: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>From: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>To: <one at humanspeakers.com>,
>	"Michael Riebs" <AudiV8 at 1stchoicegranite.com>
>Cc: "George Selby" <gselby4x4 at earthlink.net>, <quattro at audifans.com>
>Subject: Re: History repeating itself (NAC)
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:58:57 +0100
>
>> The *reason* you can use hydrogen as a simple fuel is that it 
>oxidizes
>> so readily.  It spontaneously combusts in air, in fact.  With a 
>"boom!"
>
>We filled a few hundred little balloons with hydrogen and let go of 
>them last year.  Not one
>went "Boom!!"
>
>--
>  Phil Payne
>  http://www.isham-research.com/quattro
>  +44 7785 302 803
>  +49 173 6242039
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 6
>Reply-To: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>From: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>To: "Ed Birch" <edwbirch at comcast.net>, <quattro at audifans.com>
>Subject: Re: History repeating....NAC.
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:01:33 +0100
>
>> Except in California and New York, unfortunately where new Diesel 
>powered
>> automobiles are thought to be evil machines capable of destructive
>> pollution.
>>
>> As usual, clueless politicians think they know what's good for us!
>
>The jury's out.  There is significant statistical evidence linking 
>turbodiesels with childhood
>asthma in Europe.
>
>--
>  Phil Payne
>  http://www.isham-research.com/quattro
>  +44 7785 302 803
>  +49 173 6242039
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 7
>Reply-To: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>From: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>To: <msvphoto at pacbell.net>, <quattro at audifans.com>
>Subject: Re: Congratulatiuons to Audi on another Sebring win!
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:05:18 +0100
>
>> Let's see, for the record, the BMW LMP car ran off with it's tail
>> between it's legs when it became clear the R8 would trash it so BMW
>> could focus their budget on F1.
>
>Seems to have worked.  Williams-BMW 1-2 in Malaysia a couple of hours 
>back - Ferrari nowhere
>and no VW/Audi entry.
>
>Guess which series is more important around the world?
>
>Almost no one in the UK has even heard of Sebring.  My only source is 
>this mailing list.
>
>--
>  Phil Payne
>  http://www.isham-research.com/quattro
>  +44 7785 302 803
>  +49 173 6242039
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 8
>Reply-To: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>From: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>To: "Robert Myers" <robert at s-cars.org>
>Cc: <quattro at audifans.com>
>Subject: Re: History repeating itself (NAC)
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:57:36 +0100
>
>> >The Hindenburg was filled with HELIUM - not Hydrogen - which is 
>what led to
>> >her demise! Helium is flammable, and explosive - Hydrogen is safe! 
>VERY
>> >SAFE!
>>
>> NO! NO! NO!!!!!  NO * 10^3!!!!  That is absolutely bassackwards!!  
>The
>> Hindenburg was using Hydrogen which is __EXTREMELY__ flammable.  
>Helium is
>> essentially inert.  That is why we have been discussing using 
>Hydrogen, not
>> Helium, as a fuel.
>
>Very true, but even so the Hindenburg would seem to have been the 
>victim of something other
>than a hydrogen fire.  Hydrogen fires are almost colourless.
>
>--
>  Phil Payne
>  http://www.isham-research.com/quattro
>  +44 7785 302 803
>  +49 173 6242039
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 9
>Reply-To: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>From: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>To: "mlp" <mlped at qwest.net>, <AudiV8 at 1stchoicegranite.com>,
>	<gselby4x4 at earthlink.net>, <quattro at audifans.com>
>Cc: <robert at s-cars.org>
>Subject: Re: History repeating itself (NAC)
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:07:27 +0100
>
>> - Those neuvo VW engines may be down on "HP" but take a look at the 
>torque
>> they generate.  At altitude, & slightly "tweaked" with a turbo they 
>will
>> walk away from a surprising group of cars.  Heck, even not at 
>altitude they
>> can move..
>
>Form recent experience, the A4 1.9 TDi contests the fast lane of 
>German Autobahns pretty well.
>You find a lot of them out there at around twice the UK's legal 
>limit.
>
>--
>  Phil Payne
>  http://www.isham-research.com/quattro
>  +44 7785 302 803
>  +49 173 6242039
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 10
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 06:44:31 -0500
>To: "JOHN OLSON" <johndavidolson at msn.com>, <quattro at audifans.com>
>From: Kneale Brownson <knotnook at traverse.com>
>Subject: Re: S4 1993 - Door Chime disable?
>
>--=======7569270A=======
>Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-747F3B63; 
>charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>At 10:24 PM 03/16/2002 -0800, JOHN OLSON wrote:
>
>>I have a 1993 S4.  The Door/key/radio/headlight chime is driving me 
>>crazy?  Anyone have a link to a "fix" on how to disable this infernal 
>noise?
>
>
>Doesn't the actual chime generator just plug into a relay panel?  If 
>you 
>locate that (I don't know where relay panels are on an S4), can't you 
>
>disable this "feature"  by just unplugging the noise maker?
>
>--=======7569270A=======--
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 11
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 06:47:16 -0500
>To: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>From: Robert Myers <robert at s-cars.org>
>Subject: Re:Hindenburg  (ustabe History repeating itself (NAC))
>Cc: <quattro at audifans.com>
>
>At 04:57 AM 3/17/02, Phil Payne wrote:
>
>> > >The Hindenburg was filled with HELIUM - not Hydrogen - which is 
>what 
>> led to
>> > >her demise! Helium is flammable, and explosive - Hydrogen is 
>safe! VERY
>> > >SAFE!
>> >
>> > NO! NO! NO!!!!!  NO * 10^3!!!!  That is absolutely bassackwards!!  
>The
>> > Hindenburg was using Hydrogen which is __EXTREMELY__ flammable.  
>Helium is
>> > essentially inert.  That is why we have been discussing using 
>Hydrogen, not
>> > Helium, as a fuel.
>>
>>Very true, but even so the Hindenburg would seem to have been the 
>victim 
>>of something other
>>than a hydrogen fire.  Hydrogen fires are almost colourless.
>
>True, Phil.  A pure hydrogen-oxygen flame is a very pale blue 
>colo(u)r.  Trace components of gases, even from materials normally 
>considered to be non-volatile, can produce some very interesting color 
>
>effects.  That is the basis for the old-fashioned test used to detect 
>Freon 
>leaks from Audi air conditioning systems.  (See a LAC. :-) )
>
>A flame using a copper tube from a barrel (similar to the old 
>fashioned 
>Bunsen burner) having its air supply being drawn through a rubber 
>tube.  Place the open end of the tube in the immediate vicinity of the 
>
>suspected leak.  If Freon is leaking some will be drawn through the 
>tube 
>and into the burner.  The halogens of the Freon will combine with some 
>of 
>the copper metal at the hot metal tip of the burner producing very 
>slightly 
>volatile copper halides which then impart a green color to the 
>otherwise 
>nearly colorless (blue) flame.  Only trace amounts of colorants can 
>produce 
>quite significant color effects.  Similar flame coloring effects are 
>used 
>in the fireworks industry to produce a variety of colored flames.  
>Chemists 
>uses these flame tests frequently.  No, let me make this statement 
>this 
>way.  Chemists _used_ to use these tests frequently.  Nowadays they 
>seem 
>more or less to be relegated to parlor trick status in freshman 
>chemistry 
>laboratories.
>
>The fabric and paint and God (and perhaps some long ago German 
>engineer?) 
>only knows what other components of the airship may well fully account 
>for 
>the observed color of the Hindenberg flames.  First, it is unfortunate 
>that 
>the disaster happened at all but it is also unfortunate that the only 
>
>pictures we have of the event are in black and white.  That doesn't 
>easily 
>permit color determinations other than the flame was bright.  Was the 
>flame 
>yellow?  A carbon flame is yellow, particularly when insufficient 
>oxygen is 
>present to fully oxidize all of the available carbon.  Witness a 
>poorly 
>adjusted yellow flame from a variety of burners burning natural gas or 
>
>propane or other carbon rich fuel.  Take a good look at the flame from 
>a 
>pocket cigarette lghter.  Carbon from the fabric skin may have been 
>responsible for this color.  Or was the skin fabric?  (I don't know 
>for 
>sure.  Do you?  It certainly looked like a burning painted fabric.)  
>What 
>was the actual color of the flames?  Sodium from some source (paint? 
>Ocean 
>salt spray? or...?) can also produce the sodium yellow color.  An 
>absurdly 
>tiny amount of sodium can produce intensely colored yellow flames.  Do 
>you 
>know for sure what the flame color was?
>
>Conspiracy theories always abound but it is usually best to consider 
>whether other common effects might have produces what apparent 
>anomalies 
>have been observed before ascribing those anomalies to skullduggery of 
>some 
>sort.  This is not to say, however, that skullduggery absolutely 
>wasn't 
>involved.  :-)
>
>
>Bob
>*****
>  Robert L. Myers   304-574-2372
>  Rt. 4, Box 57,  Fayetteville, WV 25840 USA   WV tag Q SHIP
>  '95 urS6  Cashmere Grey - der Wunderwagen    ICQ 22170244
>  http://www.cob-net.org/church/pvcob.htm
>*****
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 12
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:15:39 -0500
>From: Kent McLean <kentmclean at mindspring.com>
>To: Dave Hord <spokes at mail.the-wire.com>
>Cc: quattro at audifans.com
>Subject: Re: At home alignments...
>
>Dave Hord wrote:
>
>> I seem to recal reading something on 'at home alignments' somewhere, 
>perhaps 
>> here on the list.
>
>Try http://www.shallowsky.com/alignment.html
>
>
>No pictures, but lots of text. Grassroots Motorsports
>did a nice article years ago, but I don't think it's
>online.
>
>Kent
>'89 200 TQ, "Bad Puppy"
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 13
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 06:27:38 -0800 (PST)
>From: josh Wyte <josh_wyte at yahoo.com>
>Subject: WTB:  Used 14" race tires!!
>To: quattro at audifans.com
>
>Looking for a set of Kumho Victoracers or R1's to
>auto-x with this season with my scirocco.
>
>Need to still have decent meat on them, size 185-60-14
>or 205-55-14.  
>
>If you have anything, drop me an email!  Thanks!!
>
>-josh
>
>=====
>Josh Wyte 
>Momentum Motorsports
>508-833-3024 After 5 pm EST
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage
>http://sports.yahoo.com/
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 14
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:37:01 -0500
>From: Kent McLean <kentmclean at mindspring.com>
>To: Phil Payne <quattro at isham-research.com>
>Cc: quattro at audifans.com
>Subject: Re: History repeating....NAC.
>
>Phil Payne wrote:
>
>>>As usual, clueless politicians think they know what's good for us!
>> 
>> The jury's out.  There is significant statistical evidence linking 
>turbodiesels with childhood
>> asthma in Europe.
>
>How do they differentiate turbodiesel emissions from
>regular diesel emissions? :-)
>
>[steps up onto the soap box]
>
>The US lawmakers go to great lengths to make sure that
>our automobiles run "clean." Yet here in the NE US,
>look at most any house away from a city and it burns
>"heating oil" in amounts per year roughly equal to a
>what a car consumes. I had a 250 gallon tank that,
>in a bad year, needed to be refilled after three weeks.
>It would take me 3-4 months to burn that much gas in
>my car.  And the oil burners are (at least in NH)
>unregulated, unrestricted, unemissioned. You can even
>find coal burners converted to burn oil for true
>inefficiency. But what politician is going to tell his
>voters that, if they don't upgrade their home heating
>system, they can't live there anymore?
>
>[steps off the soap box]
>
>Kent
>'89 200 TQ, "Bad Puppy"
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 15
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:37:57 -0500
>From: Kent McLean <kentmclean at mindspring.com>
>To: Michael Riebs <AudiV8 at 1stchoicegranite.com>
>Cc: quattro at audifans.com
>Subject: Re: History repeating itself (NAC)
>
>Michael Riebs wrote:
>
>> Yes, the MB costs more - because it's a luxury car!
>
>
>Only in America. Go to Germany, where you'll see
>lots of MB diesels running around as utilitarian
>taxis.  And yes, some MB are luxury cars, too.
>
>Kent
>'89 200 TQ, "Bad Puppy"
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 16
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 09:58:14 -0500
>From: Burl Vibert <blur at sympatico.ca>
>To: Robert Myers <robert at s-cars.org>
>Cc: Phil Payne <quattro at isham-research.com>, quattro at audifans.com
>Subject: Re: Hindenburg  (ustabe History repeating itself (NAC))
>
>
>
>Robert Myers wrote:
>> 
>> At 04:57 AM 3/17/02, Phil Payne wrote:
>> 
>> > > >The Hindenburg was filled with HELIUM - not Hydrogen - which is 
>what
>> > led to
>> > > >her demise! Helium is flammable, and explosive - Hydrogen is 
>safe! VERY
>> > > >SAFE!
>> > >
>> > > NO! NO! NO!!!!!  NO * 10^3!!!!  That is absolutely 
>bassackwards!!  The
>> > > Hindenburg was using Hydrogen which is __EXTREMELY__ flammable.  
>Helium is
>> > > essentially inert.  That is why we have been discussing using 
>Hydrogen, not
>> > > Helium, as a fuel.
>> >
>> >Very true, but even so the Hindenburg would seem to have been the 
>victim
>> >of something other
>> >than a hydrogen fire.  Hydrogen fires are almost colourless.
> 
>
>> The fabric and paint and God (and perhaps some long ago German 
>engineer?)
>> only knows what other components of the airship may well fully 
>account for
>> the observed color of the Hindenberg flames.  
>
>
>The fabric covering of the Hindenburg was doped with a layer of iron
>oxide covered with coats of cellulose butyrate acetate mixed with
>powdered aluminum.  Kinda like solid rocket fuel.  Neat huh?
>
>Burl Vibert
>1987 5kcstq
>Kingston, Ontario
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 17
>Reply-To: "Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelow at sprint.ca>
>From: "Stephen Bigelow" <sbigelow at sprint.ca>
>To: <quattro at audifans.com>
>Subject: Re: Congratulatiuons to Audi on another Sebring win!
>Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:40:32 -0500
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Phil Payne <quattro at isham-research.com>
>
>> Seems to have worked.  Williams-BMW 1-2 in Malaysia a couple of 
>hours
>back - Ferrari nowhere
>
>21st to 3rd for the Hot Schue....nowhere?
>
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>quattro mailing list
>quattro at audifans.com
>http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>
>
>End of quattro Digest




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