Fw: cold start weirdness

[John Paul Tapp]

Just picking up on this thread - At least 4 of us have the same problem
- and I've had the problem since 91 when I purchased my 87 Quattro. Only
happens when the temperature falls below - 15 Celsius. I've tried
absolutely everything and now just crank away until it starts (great
starter motor!) Starts great when cold - we've been experiencing a cold
snap - 32C - drive for anywhere from 15 minutes to 1 hour shut it off,
when I try to re-start it cranks forever.
Fuel pressure OK if you pull up on the air sensor plate it starts
No air leaks
Lots of spark
Tried a number of CO settings - no result
I've also thought of the CSV solution but it usually warms up before I
get to it.






>-----Original Message-----
>From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On
>Behalf Of quattro-request at audifans.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 8:31 AM
>To: quattro at audifans.com
>Subject: quattro Digest, Vol 3, Issue 94
>
>Send quattro mailing list submissions to
>	quattro at audifans.com
>
>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>	http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>	quattro-request at audifans.com
>
>You can reach the person managing the list at
>	quattro-owner at audifans.com
>
>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>than "Re: Contents of quattro digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Fw: cold start weirdness (SJ)
>   2. Typ 89 leaking rear caliper - source for o-rings? (Radek)
>   3. Re: Fw: cold start weirdness (Huw Powell)
>   4. RE: Help Identifying V6 TPS Pin's (Chris Semple)
>   5. Re: Cam/Crank shaft oit seal removal 90q 20v (SJ)
>   6. WG springs (Jeff Redig)
>   7. Lifters and Synth Oil (Al Powell)
>   8. Re: Lifters and Synth Oil (Phil Payne)
>   9. Re: Cam/Crank shaft oit seal removal 90q 20v (Robert Mangas)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:43:25 -0500
>From: SJ <syljay at optonline.net>
>Subject: Re: Fw: cold start weirdness
>To: audi at humanspeakers.com
>Cc: quattro at audifans.com
>Message-ID: <004a01c3dcac$0fb80670$b615c444 at dell450>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>From: "Huw Powell" <audi at humanspeakers.com>
>
>
>> > Three of us have similar problem - temp no start when cold, or
after 10
>min
>> > warmup.
>> > What do you think of the [CSV] switch idea?
>>
>> Sounds like a waste of energy to me.  It is as much trouble
>**** I thought it might be some trouble to wire up. But, actually, its
>simpler than I thought. The cold start valve always has 12 volts on it
-
>G/R
>wire. The ECU grounds the BR wire to fire the injector.
>All that is needed is a simpler 2 wire (off-on) pushbutton switch.
Splice
>one switch contact to the BRN wire, and wire other switch contact to
>ground.
>Thats it.
>
>>as
>> diagnosing the CSV system and fixing it if it is not working right,
and
>> of course, it doesn't fix anything, it's just a hack, really.
>**** The only thing it will fix is getting your engine started when you
are
>stuck at the supermarket. My idea was to provide a simple method of
proving
>that it is indeed a fuel related problem, in particular
>ECU/temperature/cold
>start injection related.
>When stuck in a supermarket parking lot, freezing my nuts off, and with
no
>tools or test equipment to play with . . that pushbutton switch idea
dont
>sound too bad.
>This would just be a temporary measure to prove an assumption, and
>eliminate
>the ignition system.
>
>> I don't mind having a manual choke on my '73 F250 beast.  I wouldn't
>> want one on a fuel injected Audi.
>**** My 85 Dodge D250 must be having sympathy pains. I'm ready to put
in a
>manual choke kit. The auto choke works fine when its above 32 F. Any
colder
>and it opens up too soon, and the engine dies.
>
>> Troubleshooting the CSV system is pretty simple, really, since there
are
>> only one or two parts.
>**** Its not so simple when the problem occurs whenever it wants to,
and
>goes away just as quickly. There are three of us now that have a
similar
>problem. And no solution in sight.
>I have replaced the temperature sensor since that appeared to be the
most
>logical candidate. I test the car almost every day. So far, so good.
>I do have a niggling suspicion that the problem might be related to a
>specific temperature range around 30 F. This is the temperature when
the
>problem always showed up. Maybe something to do with metal contraction
.
>.like connector contacts.
>
>>
>> On my 90 I am also highly suspicious of air leaks, say around the ISV
>> hose ends.  I just replaced a flaky IM top half bolt in case there
was a
>> small leak there.
>>
>> When it's very cold, a small air leak could make the engine too lean
to
>> start.  Especially if it is a bigger leak when very cold.
>**** If it was an air leak, why doesnt it do it every time its cold?
That
>simple pushbutton switch would quickly eliminate this possibility.
>When it dont start, hit the button. If it now starts, its lean. If it
dont
>start, its ignition.
>
>Maybe we can get this thread as long lasting and convoluted as the
>torque/extension tool thread. Hey, we gotta do something on these cold
>nights.
>
>SJ
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:01:01 -0500
>From: "Radek" <radek at istar.ca>
>Subject: Typ 89 leaking rear caliper - source for o-rings?
>To: <quattro at audifans.com>
>Message-ID: <001f01c3dcae$c3ecc480$f26a1dd1 at radar>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Hello Group.
>
>The rear brake caliper on my 88 90Q is leaking along the handbrake
shaft.
>Would anyone have a source for the internal o-ring that's probably the
>culprit?  I had the same thing happen last winter and could not find a
>replacement o-ring.  I understand it's a special kind of rubber, brake
>fluid
>resistant.  I disassembled everything, cleaned and put back together.
The
>leak was gone for ten months but now it's back (perhaps related to the
cold
>weather???)?  Has anyone experienced this and found a solution?
>TIA.
>
>Radek
>88 90Q
>91 V8Q 5-sp.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:56:42 -0500
>From: Huw Powell <audi at humanspeakers.com>
>Subject: Re: Fw: cold start weirdness
>To: SJ <syljay at optonline.net>
>Cc: quattro at audifans.com
>Message-ID: <4008B27A.6020906 at humanspeakers.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>
>
>>>>Three of us have similar problem - temp no start when cold, or after
10
>>
>> min
>>
>>>>warmup.
>>>>What do you think of the [CSV] switch idea?
>>>
>>>Sounds like a waste of energy to me.  It is as much trouble
>>
>> **** I thought it might be some trouble to wire up. But, actually,
its
>> simpler than I thought. The cold start valve always has 12 volts on
it -
>G/R
>> wire. The ECU grounds the BR wire to fire the injector.
>> All that is needed is a simpler 2 wire (off-on) pushbutton switch.
Splice
>> one switch contact to the BRN wire, and wire other switch contact to
>ground.
>> Thats it.
>
>Right, exactly.  That's *more* work than testing the thing in the first
>place!  Now, if there are other cold start issues involving "not enough
>fuel," a rig like that might get you to warm weather to fix it right.
>All I know, is if it this cold out, I don't want to be fiddling even
>that one wire through my firewall.  I want the car to start.  And the
>only time it has trouble is *dead* cold.  An hour and a half the other
>day at the supermarket, no trouble at all.
>
>Since I don't commute (and leave my car all day at work), this only
>happens to me at home, so of course my attitude towards "fixes" is
>different.
>
>All I know is, that if I went out right now into the field with my
>battery booster, the 82 Coupe and 87.5 CGT's would fire right up with
>one crank.  Boo hoo...
>
>> When stuck in a supermarket parking lot, freezing my nuts off, and
with
>no
>> tools or test equipment to play with . . that pushbutton switch idea
dont
>> sound too bad.
>> This would just be a temporary measure to prove an assumption, and
>eliminate
>> the ignition system.
>
>Again, I say it is just as easy to test/fix the CSV system.  And if it
>doesn't help, it only proves it wasn't the CSV, it doesn't tell you
what
>is *really* wrong.
>
>>>Troubleshooting the CSV system is pretty simple, really, since there
are
>>>only one or two parts.
>>
>> **** Its not so simple when the problem occurs whenever it wants to,
and
>> goes away just as quickly. There are three of us now that have a
similar
>> problem. And no solution in sight.
>
>The CSV is too simple to create lots of random problems.  It also does
>not do very much.  I think that the idea could be useful as a temporary
>diagnostic (not hard wired to pass. comp.), if your bad starts are
>predictable.  Me, I'm gonna test the thing as soon as it goes above 15
F
>out.  I'm gonna do a lot of things if it ever gets that warm out, like
>some gardening, tanning, paint the building...
>
>> **** If it was an air leak, why doesnt it do it every time its cold?
>
>On my car, it does.  And *only* then.  And as soon as it catches, at
>all, it runs fine.
>
>> That
>> simple pushbutton switch would quickly eliminate this possibility.
>> When it dont start, hit the button. If it now starts, its lean. If it
>dont
>> start, its ignition.
>
>Still not actually diagnosing the problem though.  See what I am trying
>to say?  So it "fixes" it.  Now, what is wrong?  Air leaks?  Bad CSV
>control?  Fuel issues?
>
>> Maybe we can get this thread as long lasting and convoluted as the
>> torque/extension tool thread. Hey, we gotta do something on these
cold
>> nights.
>
>It's good to have dreams... and live them to their fullest!
>
>--
>Huw Powell
>
>http://www.humanspeakers.com/audi
>
>http://www.humanthoughts.org/
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:59:52 -0500
>From: "Chris Semple" <chris at force5auto.com>
>Subject: RE: Help Identifying V6 TPS Pin's
>To: <quattro at audifans.com>
>Message-ID: <03d401c3dcae$6b912380$658479a5 at shop>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
>> [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of passat TS
>
>> I'm converting my rally car to EFI and I'm using a V6 TB out
>> of a 93 100. It
>> fit's my IM and has the TPS incorporated.
>>
>> I would really appreciate if somebody that knows or can check in your
>> Bentley wiring diagram for the Pinage identification
>> (positive, ground, signal).
>> Thanks for your help,
>> Carlos
>
>Do you have a 5pin connection on it? Do you have the factory harness
>connector and pigtail for it? I've got the Bentley around here
somewhere...
>
>Cheers,
>-Chris Semple
>Concord NH,
>'92 S4, out in the cold
>   '96 Bobcat 751, inside+warm
>      '96 Int'l 4700, outside but plugged in.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:04:23 -0500
>From: SJ <syljay at optonline.net>
>Subject: Re: Cam/Crank shaft oit seal removal 90q 20v
>To: quattro at audifans.com
>Message-ID: <005201c3dcae$fdb03670$b615c444 at dell450>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>> From: David Thoresen <david at epicfoto.com>
>>
>> So far I broke 2 tips off of random knives, tried the screw technique
>> (screw pulled right out..), tried to stick a screw driver in there...
>> nothin...
>**** This is how I got the seal out.
>Get two screws with very wide flutes/threads. I think I used some kind
of
>sheet rock screws, or screws used for particle board . . . thin shank
but
>huge threads. The bigger the thread, the better the grip.
>Drill 2 small holes 180 degrees apart.
>Carefully screw in the 2 screws.
>Using pliers and a block of wood for a fulcrum, grab a screw and very
>slowly
>lever out each side just a little at a time. If you do one side too
much,
>the seal will cock and jam.
>
>SJ
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:35:17 -0700
>From: Jeff Redig <birdmanmt at juno.com>
>Subject: WG springs
>To: quattro at audifans.com
>Message-ID: <20040116.223518.3244.0.birdmanmt at juno.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>i'm looking for some 1.8 and 2.2 WG springs.  Anybody have some their
>looking to part with?
>
>thanks
>jeff
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 23:35:39 -0700
>From: "Al Powell" <apowell at gocougs.wsu.edu>
>Subject: Lifters and Synth Oil
>To: <quattro at audifans.com>, <s_malt at yahoo.com>
>Message-ID: <BPEGLFDNGGDDBECLDDPAOEKFCDAA.apowell at gocougs.wsu.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>Single Malt <s_malt at yahoo.com> asked:
>
>I decided to take my 01 S4 to an indy before my factory warranty
expires
>(1k
>left!) to check things out ...
>
>As they were dumping oil from my boost tubes, I asked if they could
tell if
>it
>was dino or synth oil (since I had just switched to synth a thousand
miles
>ago).  Both the service advisor and the mechanic said to switch back to
>dino
>immediately.  They were quite clear that I *would* have lifter problems
>(their
>words: "every time").
>
>Does any one have any information about this??
>
>***Yes. They have no #!^#&@ idea what they're talking about. This
throws
>ANY
>technical advice they give you into question, but it at least proves
>they're
>woefully and totally ignorant about synthetic oil. They obviously DO
NOT
>make an effort to keep up with current technology - say, anything since
the
>Korean war, when synthetics came into common use in military jets. Or,
to
>be
>more charitable, since the 1970's when synthetic oil became easily
>commercially available as Mobil 1.  I'm a relative newcomer, only
having
>run
>synthetic oils and lubricants in every car I've owned since 1977.
>
>Keep with the synthetic. It will clean the engine more effectively and
it's
>great for lifters. It often quiets noisy lifters in the 5-cylinder
Audis.
>It resists heat breakdown and is better lil all around. (I know Avi, I
>know,
>just keep your shirt on.)
>
>And find a new indy shop. These guys don't know a helluva lot.
>
>************************************
>Al Powell
>apowell at gocougs.wsu.edu
>1958 Fiat 1200 Transformabile Spyder
>1983 Datsun 280ZX Turbo
>1993 Audi 90Q
>1997 Chebby Blazer
>1999 Chebby Blazer
>************************************
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:18:29 +0100
>From: "Phil Payne" <quattro at isham-research.com>
>Subject: Re: Lifters and Synth Oil
>To: <quattro at audifans.com>
>Message-ID: <005b01c3dcec$ee7f0440$0e00a8c0 at bt.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> As they were dumping oil from my boost tubes, I asked if they could
tell
>if
>> it
>> was dino or synth oil (since I had just switched to synth a thousand
>miles
>> ago).  Both the service advisor and the mechanic said to switch back
to
>dino
>> immediately.  They were quite clear that I *would* have lifter
problems
>> (their
>> words: "every time").
>>
>> Does any one have any information about this??
>
>Having just read Al's response - I wonder.
>
>Over here (UK) "synthetic" usually means Mobil 1 or something similar.
If
>you walk into one
>of the auto stores such as Halfords and ask for some Mobil 1, they will
>without comment give
>you a can of 0W30 or 0W40.  These oils _will_ make your lifters rattle
-
>they're much too thin
>for I5 engines.
>
>I wonder if that's what your monkey boys really mean.
>
>--
>  Phil Payne
>  http://www.isham-research.com/quattro
>  +44 7785 302 803
>  +49 173 6242039
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 9
>Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:30:35 +0000
>From: "Robert Mangas" <porter_t_dog at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Cam/Crank shaft oit seal removal 90q 20v
>To: knotnook at traverse.com, david at epicfoto.com, quattro at audifans.com
>Message-ID: <Sea2-F5LSVfTD8z5VLN00019a99 at hotmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
>
>My thoughts exactly; don't risk anguish, get yourself the proper tool.
>
>>From: Kneale Brownson <knotnook at traverse.com>
>>To: David Thoresen <david at epicfoto.com>, quattro at audifans.com
>>Subject: Re: Cam/Crank shaft oit seal removal 90q 20v
>>Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:45:27 -0500
>>
>>Get the seal removal tool from Sears.  About $7.  Looks a bit like a
>>pickaxe with larger and smaller points.  You carefully work a point in
>>behind the rubber part of the seal and just roll the tool handle so
the
>>point pushes out on the metal.
>>
>>At 04:47 PM 1/16/2004 -0800, David Thoresen wrote:
>> >I have the timing belt off and everything but am having some extreme
>> >difficulty removing the seals... I unfortunately do not have the
>> >specific tool for the job... anyone have any tips??  I would greatly
>> >appreciate it very very very much...  I am trying to button up this
>> >thing tonight.
>> >
>> >Thanks You!
>> >
>> >David
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >quattro mailing list
>> >quattro at audifans.com
>> >http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>quattro mailing list
>>quattro at audifans.com
>>http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up - fast & reliable Internet access with
>prime
>features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>quattro mailing list
>quattro at audifans.com
>http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
>
>
>End of quattro Digest, Vol 3, Issue 94
>**************************************