Total $@!#head Administration (on Topic)

[Brett Dikeman]

At 3:11 AM -0400 6/16/04, Emre Washburn wrote:

>Do you have all the information our government has?

Nope, and our government agencies, from the CIA/FBI right down to the 
NYPD and NYFD, were too busy infighting to work effectively.  Don't 
believe me?  Read the "9/11" commission's reports and listen to the 
radio tapes (which, incidentally, were not released to the public for 
quite some time- and it's now easy to see why).

Isn't it funny how the solution to "we ignored information about an 
impending terrorist attack" is "let's strip away citizens' rights in 
the desperate hope we might collect more information to ignore"?

>All you "freedom" hungry people can complain about losing freedoms, 
>but what "freedom" is it that you lost?

http://www.aclu.org/Files/getFile.cfm?id=11812

Cutesy Flash version here:
http://www.aclu.org/PatriotActFlash/PatriotActFeature.htm

First Amendment - Freedom of religion, speech, assembly, and the press.
Fourth Amendment - Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.
Fifth Amendment - No person to be deprived of life, liberty or 
property without due process of law.
Sixth Amendment - Right to a speedy public trial by an impartial 
jury, right to be informed of the facts of the accusation, right to 
confront witnesses and have the assistance of counsel.
Eighth Amendment - No excessive bail or cruel and unusual punishment 
shall be imposed.
Fourteenth Amendment - All persons (citizens and noncitizens) within 
the US are entitled to due process and the equal protection of the 
laws.

Oh, and how's this for cute- if you challenge the USA Patriot Act, 
the lawsuit has to be sealed and kept secret, until the justice 
department (the executive branch) thinks it isn't a threat.

Think it can't happen to you?  How about the lawyer, a US citizen but 
Islamic convert, who was held for weeks by the FBI even after being 
repeatedly told by Spanish intelligence agencies that there was zero 
evidence he was involved in the train bombing attacks, that he had no 
motive, or even opportunity?

"But I'm not islamic", you say.  "First they came for the islamic 
people, but I said nothing, because I wasn't islamic", would be my 
reply.

Lots more info here:
http://www.aclu.org/safeandfree/safeandfreemain.cfm

But, what do you expect from a president who sets up "free speech 
zones" out of his (and the TV camera's) sight/earshot/micshot, so he 
doesn't have to see just how disgusted people are?  Bush supporter? 
Well, sir, step right up here to the street side, wave your banner 
for the TV cameras, please!

>  OK, so you may get a hand held radio confiscated on an airline. 
>Don't like it?
>Don't fly, or better yet, buy your own airline, and do as you please.

Actually, it's pretty clear you have little idea what you're talking 
about if you think "buy your own plane" is a solution.  With family 
members and friends who are pilots, I can tell you it's anything but 
simple.  The FAA declared automatic no-fly zones around many types of 
buildings- but no charts, listings, or specific NOTAMs were provided; 
the rules changed almost daily, making it nearly impossible to keep 
up.  Routinely pilots innocently and accidentally crossed through 
no-fly zones as part of filed flight plans, simply because they had 
no idea that the little spec below them was something someone was 
worried about a plane getting crashed into; often nobody noticed, 
other times the pilot found fighter jets off their wingtips.  It used 
to be only military airspace and a zone around the white house were 
no-fly zones; now there are probably, by virtue of rules like "no 
flying within X miles of a power plant", tens if not hundreds of 
thousands of unmarked no-fly zones.  I think at one point drinking 
water reservoirs had no-fly zones.


>They way I look at it is the people who crashed jets into buildings 
>who took our freedoms away.

Terrorists(depending on your definition of the word) didn't write, in 
secret, and pass, in the dead of night, the USA "PATRIOT" Act.

>  I value my freedom to feel safe and secure more then my freedom to 
>carry certain luggage onto a jet.

Stop obsessing over the radio.  As I made clear, it was the last 
straw- not the first- for me.

>It's a new world, so don't use quotes from Ben Franklin when he could
>have NEVER envisioned he type of danger we face in this modern
>society.

No, he just helped write, and then signed, a document which was a 
guaranteed death sentence unless the colonies successfully fought off 
the British army.

At 4:09 AM -0700 6/16/04, frank j. bauer wrote:

>ben lived in a world where the white house was burned to the ground 
>by the british...

Close-  Franklin lived until 1790, about 20 years before the War of 1812.

Brett
-- 
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
http://www.users.cloud9.net/~brett/