Type 44 Swaybar Questions..or: Listing Like A Spanish Galleon

[Ed Kellock]

Sounds pretty much like what I wrote, in summary, though I didn't
address the camber component.

I had an A1 GTI years ago and played with the suspension a lot.
although not for competition.  Still, I experienced lots of over and
under steer and learned a lot.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "LL - NY" <larrycleung at gmail.com>
To: "Ed Kellock" <ekellock at gmail.com>
Cc: <quattro at audifans.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Type 44 Swaybar Questions..or: Listing Like A Spanish
Galleon


> See my recent post about the A2 Golf chassis. In a sense, Gerard is
actually
> correct. When there is SO much positive camber change (as it seems
most
> ALL VAG products of the eighties seem to do) in the front,
controlling that with
> added roll stiffness allows the front tires to work as intended,
> instead of cornering
> on their sidewalls. This seems to violate the standard expectations
of
> adding roll stiffness causing the stiffened end to wash out, but
that
> assumption relys on the concept that camber change was already
> controlled, such as in well designed double wishbone cars. There,
the
> addition of antiroll bars were intended to "fine tune" an already
> properly functioning suspension. Now, far be it for me to criticize
> the wisdom of Audi engineers, but they seemed to really aim to take
no
> risks on the handling of these cars (early '80's design VAG) in
terms
> of promoting oversteer, so taming ANY roll camber change seems to
help
> them out tremendously. And, as Scott J has so ably proven on the
road
> course (and myself indirectly using the A2 Golf in autocross)
believe
> it or not, adding front roll stiffness to these beasts really helps
UP
> TO A POINT. Beyond that, you'll then want to add some rear stiffness
> to help balance things, but the front bar starts allowing the front
> tires to operate in their desired range, the rear is simply along
for
> the ride. Only THEN is it worth tuning the back end of the car.
>
> LL - NY
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:28:48 -0700, Ed Kellock <ekellock at gmail.com>
wrote:
> > The front anti-roll bar in the 4.2 V8q is larger than the rest and
> > still (or recently still) available through the dealer for about
$350.
> >
> > As far as I know, there's no slam-dunk bolt-on alternative for the
> > rear.  There are some (one?) fairly well developed (?) ones for
> > S-cars, but I don't have any info on their adaptability for other
> > models.
> >
> > My understanding (from nearly 10 years of observation on-list...
> > scary) is that the T44 can initially benefit from more control in
the
> > front, up to a point, with some attention then to the rear,
depending
> > on one's motives.
> >
> > The same has proven true for my CGT.  I installed a rear bar many
> > years ago, but the effect was not great.  It would roll and then
catch
> > and then be really stiff and the oversteer without much
predictability
> > since it was then nearly at the limit. Not fun.  I pulled the rear
bar
> > and later installed a thicker 4kq front bar.  Hmmm, that's kind
nice.
> > Soon thereafter, I reinstlalled the rear bar.  Hmm, that's pretty
> > cool.
> >
> > I think the basic dynamics are similar between CGT and T44
equations
> > regarding weight distribution, front to rear.  An improvement from
> > stock can be realized with more roll stiffness up front.  At some
> > point, more near than far, you need to add stiffness to the rear
as
> > well.
> >
> > On my '91 V8q, I'm going to ditch the Bilstien HD's for Koni
Yellows
> > and add a 4.2 front bar.  Then I'll see what's next.  The CGT is
fine,
> > unless I decide to make it my track car (Carter, you demon).  The
'85
> > urq might eventually become my track choice.   The '89 200q will
be
> > sold as soon as I replace the door locks and front subframe,
> > unless.... it might be the best choice for Steamboat...  $$$$ I
> > digress.    When do those tax refunds come out anyway?
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Alex Kowalski" <akowalsk at comcast.net>
> > To: <quattro at audifans.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:25 PM
> > Subject: Type 44 Swaybar Questions..or: Listing Like A Spanish
Galleon
> >
> > > With apologies to Sting...
> > >
> > > A while back there was a thread on Type 44 swaybar replacement,
with
> > some suggestions that a bigger swaybar from a V8 would be a
worthwhile
> > idea for the front end to tame understeer.
> > >
> > > In a galaxy far, far in the Archives, there was a long
discussion on
> > Type 44 swaybars, front and rear, and the most sanguine advice
seems
> > to be that upgrading the roll stiffness of the car is best done by
> > increasing the front swaybar size and going to linear-rate springs
at
> > the rear.  Some people had managed to get an S4 swaybar to fit on
the
> > back of a Type 44, by "fabricating some brackets" and so forth.
> > >
> > > Some of the parts and techniques referenced in that thread were
> > already NLA in 2003, so I'd like to try to bring this up to date:
> > >
> > > Type 44 Listers, what do you recommend to improve the handling
of
> > the car and reduce understeer at this point in time, with parts
that
> > are still available?  Bigger front bar/stiffer springs all around?
No
> > changes to the swaybar except new bushings, and then stiffer
springs
> > all around?
> > >
> > > I realize that suspension tuning is a complex subject with a lot
of
> > variables, so I'll tell you what I'm after to help direct the
> > discussion.  I have a bone-stock '87 5KCSTQ with relatively low
miles,
> > good struts and shocks, and the bushings aren't bad, but they are
> > getting old.  I want to make some provisions now for upgrades that
I
> > will do in the not-too-distant future.  I would like to make the
car a
> > little more neutral, reduce the ride height slightly, but I don't
want
> > a bone-jarring, twitchy autocross-only type vehicle.   I plan to
> > upgrade to 16" wheels and tires by the end of the year, probably
to A4
> > wheels, and I'd like to adjust the suspension to take advantage of
a
> > little more tire.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Alex Kowalski
> > > '87 5KCSTQ
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> >
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