Super duper fuels, eh?

Mon Aug 6 12:30:01 EDT 2007

I dunno, John.  Just how long do you think ethanol has been in worldwide 
production?  AFAIK, it is the oldest known chemical reaction carried out by 
mankind since prehistory.  (Number 2 is the saponification reaction - soap 
making.  It seems that mankind's desire for cleanliness is secondary to his 
desire for drunkenness.)  The technology is pretty well worked out by 
now.  Further significant gains in efficiency seem highly unlikely.

Bob

At 10:51 AM 8/6/2007 -0400, John S. Lagnese wrote:

>The point is, without being redundant, is that the technology for making the
>ethanol will get better. That will allow less oil required to produce the
>ethanol. There will be more fuel saved in using the ethanol than fuel used
>in production. This would bring up my original that a NET savings in oil
>will be reached.
>John
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Grant Lenahan" <glenahan at vfemail.net>
>To: "John S. Lagnese" <jlagnese at massed.net>
>Cc: <brett at cloud9.net>; <quattro at audifans.com>; <TurboQuattro at shaw.ca>;
>"'William Magliocco'" <magliocc at rocketmail.com>; "'LL - NY'"
><larrycleung at gmail.com>
>Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 7:39 AM
>Subject: Re: Super duper fuels, eh?
>
>
> > I'm not sure hwo that is relevant tomy point, but there was a  disturbing
> > article in C&ED, comparing late 50s cars with todays gfor  weight and
> > MPGs.
> >
> > MPGs are up less than 30% for comparable vehicles, held back largely by
> > Weight which has RISEN.
> >
> > Grant
> > On Aug 5, 2007, at 10:24 PM, John S. Lagnese wrote:
> >
> >> Currently, what gas mileage do you think earlier cars got? Mileage has
> >> doubled or tripled. I am sure that technology will increase the
> >> production efficiency.
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Lenahan"
> >> <glenahan at vfemail.net>
> >> To: "John Lagnese" <jlagnese at massed.net>
> >> Cc: "'William Magliocco'" <magliocc at rocketmail.com>;  <brett at cloud9.net>;
> >> "'LL - NY'" <larrycleung at gmail.com>;  <TurboQuattro at shaw.ca>;
> >> <quattro at audifans.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 8:53 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Super duper fuels, eh?
> >>
> >>
> >>> No. See earlier posts. Yu save gas at the pump, but use even more
> >>> making the ethanol.
> >>>
> >>> Grant
> >>> On Aug 4, 2007, at 10:15 PM, John Lagnese wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Even if the 10% ethanol has a net of 5% that's still a 5% decrease  of
> >>>> energy
> >>>> dependency on others (read that shaky belligerent dictatorships).  You
> >>>> can be
> >>>> sure as the price of fuel goes up, ethanol production will become  more
> >>>> efficient and prevalent.
> >>>> John
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com
> >>>> [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On
> >>>> Behalf Of LL - NY
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 8:36 PM
> >>>> To: William Magliocco
> >>>> Cc: brett at cloud9.net; TurboQuattro at shaw.ca; quattro at audifans.com
> >>>> Subject: Re: Super duper fuels, eh?
> >>>>
> >>>> It is not. It takes nearly as much fossil fuel energy to produce
> >>>> the ethanol (from corn, anyway, the Brazilians are much better
> >>>> off b/c they make their ethanol from cane sugar, which is one
> >>>> of their main crops) as the energy we get out of it.
> >>>>
> >>>> It's a smoke screen, it makes us think we are doing something
> >>>> about reducing fossil fuel use, atmospheric CO2 levels, and
> >>>> dependency on foreign oil, but it really doesn't help much. Unless
> >>>> you're a corn futures broker.
> >>>>
> >>>> LL - NY
> >>>>
> >>>> On 8/4/07, William Magliocco <magliocc at rocketmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Agreed, Brett.  The cocktail was burned off in less
> >>>>> than a week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The 100 in question is the most well sealed fuel
> >>>>> system of any car I have owned.  I love to hear the
> >>>>> air rush in when I pull the cap off at the gas
> >>>>> station.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Not wishing to start a flame war, though, I am not
> >>>>> convinced that the US approach to ethanol is energy
> >>>>> efficient.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- Brett Dikeman <quattro at frank.mercea.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Aug 4, 2007, at 4:37 PM, William Magliocco wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I once made an ~E-25 cocktail with a 1/4 tank of
> >>>>>> E-85
> >>>>>>> then the rest 93 octane premium in my '93 100.
> >>>>>> Yes,
> >>>>>>> the engine liked it better, but the wallet did
> >>>>>> not.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> You can't run more than about 20% alcohol according
> >>>>>> to the manual, if
> >>>>>> I recall.  Damages the seals and hoses.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also, ethanol fuel is hygroscopic like you wouldn't
> >>>>>> believe.  You
> >>>>>> have to use it fast, or have a very well sealed
> >>>>>> system, or you're
> >>>>>> going to end up with water, and hence rust the
> >>>>>> injectors, regulator,
> >>>>>> etc.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> One of ethanol's many problems as a fuel.  Even in
> >>>>>> Brazil, the number
> >>>>>> of ethanol cars is dropping, and it is widely
> >>>>>> available and (I
> >>>>>> believe) cheaper.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Brett
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _____________________________________________________________________
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