NAC: Rennsport III

[theringmeister at triad.rr.com]

Don't forget the 24 is just about a month away.....  R-IV is 3 years away 8^)
 
Anybody else planning to go?  This'll be my 3rd one in a row if I can get there, which I plan to do if all goes well.

Wylie Bean
TheRingmeister at triad.rr.com
90 cq
91 90q20v sport
92 UrS4
01 allroad

Message: 5 
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:40:07 -0500 
From: "Cody Forbes" <cody at 5000tq.com> 
Subject: NAC: Rennsport III 
To: <quattro at audifans.com> 
Message-ID: <000801c849bb$be0fd600$6401a8c0 at nuvolari> 
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1" 
 
Once a week it seems I see a post where somebody mentioned they were at 
Rennsport. WTH! We need to get together on these things!!! As of yet I of course 
know I attended (white 5ktq, supporting a white RSR and a red ur-S 911), S-car 
lister Wylie Bean was there with his red urS4 (and we met up), Taka was there 
unbeknownst to me, who else?? 
 
 
Just to get the jump on things, I'll be at Rennsport IV. Let me know if you are 
going ;-). We can all meet for lunch, 12:30 at Hooters across from the track on 
Saturday. 
 
-Cody Forbes 
http://www.5000tq.com 
'87 5ktq - Fast. 
'87 5ktq QLCC'd plus some 
'86 5ktqCD 
'86 5k 
'86 5k 
--




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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. Re: team doorhandle (Cody Forbes)
>    2. Re: [A4] tires, speaking of tires,	anyone have any used 17's
>       lay'n around? (LL - NY)
>    3. Re: team doorhandle (Tom Love)
>    4. Re: team doorhandle (LL - NY)
>    5. NAC: Rennsport III (Cody Forbes)
>    6. Re: team doorhandle ( Wylie Bean )
>    7. Re: team doorhandle (Kent McLean)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 19:57:46 -0500
> From: "Cody Forbes" <cody at 5000tq.com>
> Subject: Re: team doorhandle
> To: "Grant Lenahan" <glenahan at vfemail.net>,	<quattro at audifans.com>
> Message-ID: <001001c849b5$d3d0bdc0$6401a8c0 at nuvolari>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> Here in NC you have two classes of inspection, OBDII and Pre-OBDII (35 years 
> or older doesn't require inspection). BTW, I am an NC inspector so I'm not 
> just talking out my ass ;-). Anyways, yeah the pre-OBDII cars get a basic 
> safety checkover... really just to make sure the wheels aren't falling off 
> and the lights work. Technically you are supposed to check for tampering 
> with emissions devices (visually only), but very very few inspectors bother. 
> OBDII cars on the other hand get a much more involved going-over, plus our 
> inspection computer plugs into the diag port and scans for readiness as well 
> as fault codes. Cost of the OBDII inspection is over double that of the 
> safety-only inspection. NC doesn't use the tailpipe probes at all anymore, 
> so a pre-OBDII car is basically free to run as heavily modified as you 
> desire, while an OBDII car can only go so far before you run into issues 
> with oxygen sensor codes and cat efficiency codes.
> 
> I forgot about the tax thing that somebody else mentioned also. Back home in 
> FL sales tax is only applied at time of purchase, but here in NC they tax 
> you on cars, house, boat, etc every year. All of my 5000's cost $6.50 each 
> in tax each year, whereas a B5 A4 would be over a hundred bucks easy.
> 
> -Cody Forbes
> http://www.5000tq.com
> '87 5ktq - Fast.
> '87 5ktq QLCC'd plus some
> '86 5ktqCD
> '86 5k
> '86 5k
> 
> 
> Grant Lenahan wrote:
> >
> > I dont understand this OBD2 thing from Cody. Here in NJ anyway, each
> > year has its own specific emissions limits, and they slowly tighten
> > as cars get newer. I've never had a properly operating car come even
> > close to the legal limit.
> >
> > Maybe elsewhere there's a magic cliff they fall off of. Not here.
> >
> > G
> > On Dec 28, 2007, at 7:10 PM, Tony Hoffman wrote:
> >
> >> I'll jump on that bandwagen. From a daily driver perspective, the
> >> A4's are far nicer cars, especially the interior. However, they are
> >> also very americanized, and therefor have lost much of that "german
> >> car character" that makes them special, adn therefore worth all the
> >> headaches.
> >>
> >> Also, I, along with Cody and probably several others on this list,
> >> work on these cars (professionally) every day. I'll second the "No
> >> thank you". Ever done a TB on a 30V? How about the cam chain
> >> tensioner seals? I could damn near rebuild a 4000Q in the time it
> >> takes to replace an automatic trans in an A4 Quattro. OK, not quite,
> >> but you get the point. And the $$ to maintain one is rediculous also!
> >>
> >> But, to each their own,
> >> Tony Hoffman
> >>
> >> On Dec 28, 2007 5:48 PM, Michael McLaughlin <mcloffs at mac.com> wrote:
> >>> I own an A4, and am not so quick to agree. While having the more
> >>> modern car is nice in a lot of ways, it certainly doesn't have the
> >>> same feel as the older cars -- my 1990 100 and 1995 90 Quattro had
> >>> their issues, but they had that old German indestructible feel. My
> >>> wife often suggests we sell the A4 and find another 90; it's
> >>> tempting.
> >>>
> >>> -Mike in Snoqualmie, Wash.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> quattro mailing list
> >> quattro at audifans.com
> >> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
> >> ---
> >> Watch this space for ads :)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > quattro mailing list
> > quattro at audifans.com
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> > ---
> > Watch this space for ads :) 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:19:32 -0500
> From: "LL - NY" <larrycleung at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [A4] tires, speaking of tires,	anyone have any used 17's
> 	lay'n around?
> To: brett at cloud9.net
> Cc: Rocky Mullin <caliban at sharon.net>, quattro at audifans.com,
> 	a4 at audifans.com,	Brizax at aol.com, Sean Reifschneider
> 	<jafo-audifans at tummy.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<85e5c2670712281719m76748467uf4c5446c9486673d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> My point is that I believe you overstated the case that the 3 channel Bosch
> ABS system would "totally lose" braking if one of the rear wheels sensed
> slip. It will not. It will limit braking force to the limit of the rear tire
> of with the least traction, but it most certainly will not be zero unless
> you're on a zero mu surface, in which case you shouldn't be driving
> anythingthat uses tires as it's only means of stop, go, turn.
> 
> And, in the case of the C3 and C4 chassis cars, it has already been
> discussed at nauseum that in high mu situations, the weight transfer to the
> front axle under threshold braking situations pretty well negates the rear
> axle braking effect on slowing the car, any of us whom have pushed either of
> these chassis cars to the limit has experienced it. In these cases, having
> limited braking from the rear axle really would have no overall effect on
> braking distances, and having the ABS function will help retain control of
> the rear axle, though not as well as a properly trained delicate foot would.
> 
> 
> And as George has so rightfully pointed out, at least the ABS generation of
> my type 44 was pretty over sensitive on loose surface situations. I did
> appreciate ABS defeat on theat car. The ABS of the 95.5 //S6 has shown
> itself to be significantly less sensitive, and for the most part the ABS of
> the Saabaru (okay, diff mfg, but 10 years newer software and processors I'm
> sure has made it Germany as well as Japan) is pretty darned effective on all
> surfaces. In fact, the only time I do defeat ABS on the Saabaru is when
> competing in Solo2, where for some reason the ABS system is unable to keep
> up ABS reserve pressure in certain situations resulting in nearly complete
> loss of brake boost for up to about half a second (no ABS, no boost, feels
> like no brake) in competition. The ABS defeat in that case is simply to pull
> the fuse, but I guess that is the ONE thing I do like about the stupid
> Hydroboost on the C3/C4. I NEVAH ran out of ABS reserve pressure on either
> of those cars  But on course, neither was as fast either.
> 
> Finally, on the note of manual threshold braking vs. modern ABS, I'm somehow
> questioning the validity of your findings at HPDE's vs. the experience of
> the testers at both Road and Track, Car and Driver, Autoweek and even
> Consumer's Union, whom have the ability, trained testers, and facilities to
> do repeated consistent tests on the performance of the brakes on the cars
> they test on a professional basis. To a fault, ALL of those publications
> state that they produce the most consistently short stopping distances (read
> their annual, "how we test" issues) by applying full ABS. They say that they
> can occassionally beat ABS, but not consistently, particularly with
> contemporary iron. What you may be finding at HPDE's (as do we when we run
> Autocross schools) is that you are finding driver inconsistencies. Many,
> many drivers do not react appropriately when the ABS triggers in their cars,
> and they attempt to modulate their brakes, just as if they are doing
> threshold braking. M-B found this which is what encouraged them to invent
> the somewhat scary in my book "brake-assist" software that they use in their
> cars. SO, if ABS triggers in those driver's cars, many drivers FAIL to keep
> their foot firmly on the pedal until the vehicle stops. No full effort,
> longer stopping distances. It may well be a driver re-training issue, as
> most drivers that attend HPDE's are the kind that are more likely to
> attemptthreshold braking (thus modulating the pedal) than the general
> population.
> But the point is that the professionals (and we're not talking just consumer
> mags, the first three on my list I'd place firmly on the "enthusiast" list)
> seem to beg to differ what us more "amateur" testers have found. And, I'd
> daresay they have not only the milage and hours and experience to back
> themselves up, but also the shear numbers and variety of vehicles to do so.
> Emperical vs. objective. I'd go with objective.
> 
> LL - NY
> 
> LL - NY
> 
> On 12/28/07, Brett Dikeman <brett at cloud9.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 27, 2007, at 7:22 PM, LL - NY wrote:
> >
> > > Hate to point this out, but the wheel(s) that are triggering ABS are
> > > being used to
> > > the maximum point of availible braking traction, within the limits
> > > of the ABS computer
> > > and pump, which is nowhere near lost braking. I'd estimate that even
> > > the early Bosch
> > > series 1 ABS is capable of using nearly 70% the availible braking
> > > traction for the activated
> > > wheels. And, in the case of the type 44 and C4 cars, loosing the
> > > rears will hardly affect
> > > things, they're not doing too much braking anyway (virtually no
> > > traction due to weight
> > > transfer) in a threshold situation.
> >
> > ABS is not for shortest stopping distance.  It's for avoiding loss of
> > directional control from braking- ie spins or directional loss of
> > control from uneven braking side-to-side.  That it also provides a
> > function which *approximates* threshold braking on dry pavement, is a
> > nice bonus; dry pavement is more suited to the way ABS controls the
> > brake.
> >
> > In slippery conditions, ABS is best left as a safety net, because it
> > doesn't have nearly the 'gentle touch' required.  My 200q20v's ABS is
> > almost completely useless in the snow for actually stopping the car,
> > and my folks' Volvo was the same way.  Both vehicles, regardless of
> > tire choice, could stop far shorter when the nut behind the wheel
> > applied juuuuust enough brakes.  I'm sure most listers have noticed
> > the same, if they've ever messed around in a parking lot or just
> > tested how much traction was available on the road (something I
> > recommend listers do often in slippery conditions for a sense of
> > braking capabilities.  I've been very surprised in both ways by
> > conditions- I've been in heavy snow that let me stop on a dime, and
> > light snow that was slippery as hell.)
> >
> > At the track or on the street, it's much the same story.  You can slam
> > on the brakes and generate a lot of drama, or you can surely apply
> > them and STAND on the brake pedal without engaging ABS.  You've giving
> > time for the weight transfer to start, for the suspension to load up,
> > etc.
> >
> > I also spent a few years watching attendees do the "panic stop with
> > ABS vs. threshold braking" test at WDS.  Even with a basic amount of
> > instruction and a few practice goes, a driver can easily and handily
> > beat ABS, and it's clear as day when they're standing on the pedal-
> > even with snow tires, the wheels stop/start, the car wobbles,
> > and....doesn't do a very good job of stopping.  You can even tell when
> > some transitions from threshold braking to "oh #@$!" foot-on-the floor
> > (one of the informal and optional "contests"
> >
> > Brett
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:20:00 -0800
> From: "Tom Love" <theloves at localaccess.com>
> Subject: Re: team doorhandle
> To: "Michael McLaughlin" <mcloffs at mac.com>,	<quattro at audifans.com>
> Message-ID: <000901c849b8$ef8e9c50$0400a8c0 at tom>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> I too own a A4 Avant and find myself driving the old 4kq's more often than 
> the newer car. As a matter of fact I just bought a pristine 1984 4kq for my 
> new car and keep the A4 for the wife. I do keep all 4 door handles stocked 
> in my basement though. Got to. I have (2) 4kq's ;-)
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael McLaughlin" <mcloffs at mac.com>
> To: <quattro at audifans.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 3:48 PM
> Subject: Re: team doorhandle
> 
> 
> >I own an A4, and am not so quick to agree. While having the more modern car 
> >is nice in a lot of ways, it certainly doesn't have the same feel as the 
> >older cars -- my 1990 100 and 1995 90 Quattro had their issues, but they 
> >had that old German indestructible feel. My wife often suggests we sell the 
> >A4 and find another 90; it's tempting.
> >
> > -Mike in Snoqualmie, Wash.
> >
> >>Message: 4
> >>Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 09:43:30 -0800
> >>From: thejimrose <thejimrose at gmail.com>
> >>Subject: Re: team doorhandle
> >>To: quattro at audifans.com
> >>Message-ID:
> >> <298352bd0712280943g71458380o2de8aa5787901f54 at mail.gmail.com>
> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> >>guys.. 2 words..
> >>
> >>"A"
> >>
> >>"FOUR"
> >>
> >>at this rate a nice used a4 is the same price as about 500 doorhandles.
> >>seriously.. as great a car is it is [was], it's time for the 44's to go to
> >>the big, golden boneyard in the sky. bt, dt, stm, btt.
> >>
> >>[been there, done that, saw the movie, bought the t-shirt =]
> > _______________________________________________
> > quattro mailing list
> > quattro at audifans.com
> > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
> > ---
> > Watch this space for ads :)
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.486 / Virus Database: 269.17.11/1200 - Release Date: 
> > 12/27/2007 1:34 PM
> >
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:30:31 -0500
> From: "LL - NY" <larrycleung at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: team doorhandle
> To: "cobram at juno.com" <cobram at juno.com>
> Cc: mcloffs at mac.com, quattro at audifans.com
> Message-ID:
> 	<85e5c2670712281730r8aa0565tbd659e70e6856d56 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> So, it's not just me, but most of the modern iron I've driven has a sort of
> sameness (blandness) no matter what the ilk, what the car scribes praise, or
> whatever. I'm glad that the newest car in my stable (the 2005 Saabaru) is
> really rather "old tech", so it still has some personality. I'm really just
> not taken too much with the newer stuff out there. I was sadly not as
> overwhelmed with desire when I got to drive a Cayman in anger at Rennfest
> III. I was actually rather shocked, really. The car had tremendous ability
> (not that I was able to exploit it, the pro-instructor did) but no where
> near the personality I had expected (I'd take an 80's 911 hands down over
> the Cayman for the seat of the pants feel, even though the Cayman would blow
> it away). About the only thing that I have found that has really improved on
> the newer cars (besides the cosmetics, like interiors, the new cars
> generally blow away the old cars, and I like my UrS's interior. Alot!) is
> the ABS, which, when it works right, I can actually use in competition
> effectively, unlike our old tank's ABS systems. Oh, but that's another
> thread....
> 
> LL - NY
> 
> On 12/28/07, cobram at juno.com <cobram at juno.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've driven just about every newer Audi out there, aside from maybe an
> > S8, the few Teutonic beasts which still have the feel of the old Audi's
> > have a 3 pointed star on the hood or triple digit sticker prices.  Some
> > call it progress.
> >
> > BCNU,
> > http://www.geocities.com/cobramsri/
> > Democracy: 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for lunch.
> >
> > Michael McLaughlin <mcloffs at mac.com> writes:
> > > I own an A4, and am not so quick to agree. While having the more
> > > modern car is nice in a lot of ways, it certainly doesn't have the
> > > same feel as the older cars -- my 1990 100 and 1995 90 Quattro had
> > > their issues, but they had that old German indestructible feel. My
> > > wife often suggests we sell the A4 and find another 90; it's
> > > tempting.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > quattro mailing list
> > quattro at audifans.com
> > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
> > ---
> > Watch this space for ads :)
> >
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:40:07 -0500
> From: "Cody Forbes" <cody at 5000tq.com>
> Subject: NAC: Rennsport III
> To: <quattro at audifans.com>
> Message-ID: <000801c849bb$be0fd600$6401a8c0 at nuvolari>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Once a week it seems I see a post where somebody mentioned they were at Rennsport. WTH! We need to get together on these things!!! As of yet I of course know I attended (white 5ktq, supporting a white RSR and a red ur-S 911), S-car lister Wylie Bean was there with his red urS4 (and we met up), Taka was there unbeknownst to me, who else??
> 
> 
> Just to get the jump on things, I'll be at Rennsport IV. Let me know if you are going ;-). We can all meet for lunch, 12:30 at Hooters across from the track on Saturday.
> 
> -Cody Forbes
> http://www.5000tq.com
> '87 5ktq - Fast.
> '87 5ktq QLCC'd plus some
> '86 5ktqCD
> '86 5k
> '86 5k
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 01:35:13 +0000
> From: " Wylie Bean " <theringmeister at triad.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: team doorhandle
> To: quattro at audifans.com
> Message-ID:
> 	<1972960450-1198892131-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-251299749- at bxe008.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> 
> Cody,
> As much as I love the allroad, black on black and all, it's certainly not without a certain "fear of ownership" factor, for the reasons you describe, not to mention the torque converter failures that i've heard about. Having owned a B5 A4 Avant, a V8q, two B3 90s, and now an UrS4, I have to say I like driving the Ur, in completely stock form, the best. I just love the boost when it comes on. The smaller turbos on the 2.7T just don't match it, even though on paper according to Audi they have the same amount of torque. I've had just as many issues with the newer cars as we ever had with the older ones. If I could get my wife out of the allroad and into an ?rS6 Avant I'd  do it tomorrow.  Alas, she wants a Q7, and I must admit I really like everything about them except the payment.......
>  
> As far as OBDII goes, here in NC, they don't do emissions on non-OBDII equipped cars. Safety only. 
> Anything pre- 96 is exempt from the sniffer. 
> 
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:51:11 -0500
> From: Kent McLean <kentmclean at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: team doorhandle
> To: quattro at audifans.com
> Message-ID: <4775A80F.6020707 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> thejimrose wrote:
> > guys.. 2 words..
> > 
> > "A"
> > 
> > "FOUR"
> > 
> > at this rate a nice used a4 is the same price as about 500 doorhandles.
> > seriously.. as great a car is it is [was], it's time for the 44's to go to
> > the big, golden boneyard in the sky. bt, dt, stm, btt.
> 
> Agreed.  I'm still in the honeymoon phase of my relationship with my A4 Avant, 
> but so far I do not miss my 200s (or the 100 S (not to be confused with an 
> Austin-Healey 100 S) for that matter).
> 
> -- 
> Kent McLean
> '99 A4 Avant, w/ quattro, V6, Tiptronic. "Yeah, Baby!"
> '94 100 S Avant, "Moody"
> '91 200 TQA #1, undecided
> '91 200 TQA #2, up in smoke 2
> '89 200 TQ, "Bad Puppy", up in smoke
> '56 A-H 100, not an S (or an M)
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> quattro mailing list
> quattro at audifans.com
> http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/quattro
> 
> 
> End of quattro Digest, Vol 50, Issue 62
> ***************************************