How to check for sludge ?

Wed Nov 3 09:49:40 PDT 2010

0w40 does use VIs to achieve that spread.  Dont be fooled - synthetics can support a wider spread without VI improvers, but not 0W40.  Several years ago Amsoil did not need it in 20w50 or 10w30 but did in 10w40. Times change, maybe they can push further, but M1 ow40 for instance, has tow problems:

1 shear down (which ultimately means sludge)
2 just barely meetACEA A3 even before it shears (hths of 3.6)

Grant

On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:44 AM, Arthur Marks wrote:

> True, judging from what I've read, but the 0W's I've seen are synthetics and
> don't use viscosity improvers to get those ranges. That's why they are
> prescribed for our turbos.
> http://www.synthetic-oil-technology.info/
> 
> (And this whole problem from sludge in the B6s came when Audi was using
> regular non-syn oil, a tiny oil filter and +10k mi oil change intervals)
> Don't know if significant changes have been made after the B6's other than
> that.
> 
> --Art
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Fred Munro
> To: 'Tony Hoffman' ; 'Arthur Marks'
> Cc: quattro at audifans.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:50 AM
> Subject: RE: How to check for sludge ?
> 
> 
> Interesting observations, Tony. Your comments and some recent discussion on
> oil quality brings back some foggy memories of an oil study I read 30 years
> ago or so. The researchers were studying carbon build-up in engines
> (primarily behind/around piston rings) and correlated it to the use of
> multi-viscosity oil. The wider the viscosity range of the oil, the faster
> and more extensive the carbon build-up. They attributed it to the viscosity
> improvers used to create the multi-viscosity oil - the wider the oil
> viscosity range, the more VI was contained and the more carbon it laid down.
> The use of single viscosity oil eliminated the carbonization issue. The
> report recommended use of oil no wider than a 20 range (i.e.10W30). I wonder
> if the wide range oils common today (0W30, 0W40, etc.) have something to do
> with the carbon particles you are seeing?
> 
> Fred Munro
> '97 S6
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: quattro-bounces at audifans.com [mailto:quattro-bounces at audifans.com] On
> Behalf Of Tony Hoffman
> Sent: November 3, 2010 9:48 AM
> To: Arthur Marks
> Cc: quattro at audifans.com
> Subject: Re: How to check for sludge ?
> 
> I'd love to agree with this statement, and VAG did desigh a great
> double oil pressure sender system. However, I have had quite a few
> run-ins with these cars with the sludge issues. Every single customer
> that would tell me what happened said it like this: I was driving
> (usually on the highway) and the oil light came on. I pulled over and
> had the car towed here from that point. Only one guy was slightly
> different. He let the car cool down then drove it about a mile home,
> then had it towed. BTW, I did have customers (usually female) that
> said, "I don't know what happened, but the light came on and I need it
> fixed". Yea........................
> 
> Now, I wasn't there in the car with them, so I don't know for sure.
> But, after you hear the same thing 20 or more times, it sounds like a
> little more than just a made up story. Although, I never did
> understand why a customer would even lie anyway. Do they think I'm
> going to take them out back or something if they abused the car. Maybe
> if I'm convinced they were nice to the car the bill will be lower? I
> don't get it.
> 
> Anyhow, on nearly every one I cleaned out (quite an involved precess,
> I think) I saw galled camshaft bearings. And, on every one of them I
> also saw quite a lot of carbon particles stuck in the oil pump pickup
> tube. BTW, it's refered to generically as sludge, but in these
> engines, it's actually more like small sand piece sized particles of
> what I assume is carbon. They stick quite well into the oil pump
> pickup tube. I also clean out as much from everywhere else, and most
> of the time on the 1.8T's I convince the customer to replace the feed
> line as well. BTW, O'rieley's Brake Parts Cleaner is about the best
> thing I've found to break this stuff down. I've had several cars I"ve
> used an engine flush in as well, before taking it apart and cleaning.
> That also helps, and makes the inside cleaning quite a bit easier.
> But, the pan still HAS to come off, and the pickup tube HAS to be
> cleaned.
> 
> On the subject of how long/what type of oil to use, here are my
> thoughts. These newer cars are not comparable to the older cars. In my
> personal car, I change the oil when I get around to it, usually about
> 10k. I use whatever dino oil is on sale, usually mobil. I just had the
> oil pan off to fix an oil leak. Nothing, whatsoever in the pickup
> screen. 220k, 1986 4000 Quattro.
> 
> Having said that, I would NEVER do that on a newer VAG. or anything
> else, for that matter. I don't know if the newer cars run hotter, or
> if they have too much horsepower compared to what most people use, but
> there are definately more problems with them than the older ones. I've
> had to desludge Toyota, Honda, and Nissan V6's as well. Anything that
> seems to have more horsepower than necessary and driven by someone who
> does short trips and doesn't really use much of the available power.
> 
> The reason I guess I'm saying all of this is that If I owned a newer
> one, I'd pull the pan and clean it before the light ever has a chance
> to come on. Probably at about 80k intervals, or there about. This is
> just based on my personal experience, though.
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Arthur Marks <aamarks at cox.net> wrote:
>> It depends on how far and to what low pressure the owner might have driven
>> the vehicle if the sludge was bad enough to block up the oil suction
>> strainer. If it wasn't oil starved to the point of causing damage then
> it's
>> repairable.
>> 
>> A blinking check engine light with an oil pressure warning light will come
>> on in plenty of time to warn before damaging the engine. It's a question
> of
>> how ignorant the driver was of such warnings.
>> 
>> Info and pictures of the repair here:
>> http://members.cox.net/ambox/audi_sludge/
>> 
>> --Art
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Louis-Alain Richard
>> To: 'Scott' ; d_dibiase at yahoo.com ; quattro at audifans.com
>> Cc: thejimrose at gmail.com
>> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 1:52 PM
>> Subject: RE: How to check for sludge ?
>> 
>> 
>> Ok then,
>> 
>> After asking for maintenance records, one should look at the oil cap and
>> dipstick, poke a bent rod in the pan via the drain hole and last remove
> the
>> valve cover (if still in doubt).
>> 
>> It means that sludge (if existent) will be everywhere in the engine, not
>> just in the pan ?
>> 
>> Next question is : if present, is it "repairable" with engine flush (or
> any
>> other mechanic-in-a-bottle...) or one will have to rebuilt the engine ?
>> 
>> Louis-Alain
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> 
>> Wasn't the OP vehicle about 40K in mileage?
>> 
>> What did the oil look like at inspection (dip stick) or oil change?
>> 
>> Records would help in theory but then again you could get records like
> this:
>> 
>> http://www.quattro123.com/A4TurboEngineWarrantyExtension.htm
>> 
>> Scroll down and check the photos about the "service records"
>> 
>> I'd go synthetic after a few dino flushes of about 2K with filter change
> to
>> try and dissolve what's in there if you think its sludge filled.
>> 
>> I'd run it hot but do a long cool down too............
>> 
>> My 2 centavos, YMMV.
>> -Scott by BOSTON
>> 
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Grant Lenahan
glenahan at vfemail.net