PZEV "controversy"

Thu Jun 28 10:56:07 PDT 2012

It is rather ironic that this PZEV GLI is here with 2800 miles on it, many of those caused by driving here from Ohio yesterday, to get a bigger turbo along with software and some other goodies. I wonder if it still passes PZEV now that we are adding 141hp and 129lb/ft lol (I'm certain it doesn't).

-Cody Forbes

On Jun 28, 2012, at 11:19 AM, Mark Rosenkrantz <speedracer.mark at gmail.com> wrote:

> SCORE!    LOL
>  
> Glad my cuiosity didn't creat a torsen thread.... nor that my limited understanding of the systems were off base.  =)
>  
> As for fuel lines, there *needs* to be some flex, at least at the engine bay.  They can have (metal) braided lines for flex, but there is still rubber/plastic inside, so I just don't see how 100% solid metal lines would work in ANY car.  As for selaed tanks, you can seal things with a gasket, so there's no reason it can't have a cover.  Besides, the lines and wires have to enter somehow, so by definition there is a sealing connection, overmolded, or seal, or gasket... but there still is a penetration (several) into the tank.  PZEV just requires that the system be (paraphrasing) "airtight" for 15 years or 150,000 miles, so it might make sense if the gaskets or sealing mechanism were more robust today.  But again, what could it add?  A few dollars to the tank/gasket system (at most)?  ECU tuning is "free," so the real cost would be a more efficient catalytic converter, some of which can be solved by putting it closer to the engine for faster "light off."
>  
> It just makes sense that commonality would reign in this regard, as EVAP is still mandatory (in all 50 states) and so many cars are built without a dealership necessarily in place.  Window Stickers get put in "at port," and even then dealers trade before the cars are trucked to them, let alone after.
>  
> Thanks for checking, Cody.  I do appreciate it!!!
>  
> Mark Rosenkrantz
> 
> On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Cody Forbes <cody at 5000tq.com> wrote:
> Aaaaaaaaannnnd it's confirmed, I've been proven wrong.
> 
> I've got a 2012 TT-RS, it's a ULEV. However today I'm doing a turbo on a 2012 Jetta GLI which says it conforms to Cali PZEV. I'm now rather confused because every document I've ever read says that a PZEV **must** have all metal fuel lines, but this car has rubber in the engine bay. The fuel lines from the tank to the engine bay are metal though. I feel like pulling the rear seat to see if there's a lid on the fuel tank or if it's sealed lol.
> 
> -Cody Forbes
> 
> On Jun 27, 2012, at 1:01 AM, Steve Meyer <quattroslm at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>> I've been test driving Passats and Jettas the last week. I'll check it out later this week if I have time to drive the Jetta sedan. I really like the Sportwagen with Panoramic roof, but it was TDI and I can't justify the $29,000 price tag!
>> 
>> Steve
>> 
>> From: Mark Rosenkrantz <speedracer.mark at gmail.com>
>> To: Cody Forbes <cody at 5000tq.com> 
>> Cc: Audi List <quattro at audifans.com> 
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 10:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: PZEV "controversy"
>> 
>> Cool!  I was understanding all of the 2.5L (5 cyl) VWs were PZEV for
>> several years... and the 2.0L (4 cyl) TFSI engine is in our new car as
>> well... but I'm in NY.  Some of the stickers are under the hood- literally-
>> on the underside of the sheet metal hood itself.  I can e-mail pictures if
>> you'd like.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Cody Forbes <cody at 5000tq.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > I'm open minded about it, and I have been wrong before (but then I found I
>> > was wrong about that too). I think that the cost associated with the
>> > fuel/EVAP system makes it worthwhile to make non-PZEV hardware equipped
>> > cars. I have a '12 TT-RS for the next few days, I'll check it. Had a couple
>> > '12 GTI's, a '12 Q7, and an S5 since this discussion started and hadn't
>> > thought to check them. I'm thinking it's not likely in the performance
>> > models, but maybe in the GTI's. Worst case scenario I'll visit the Dub
>> > dealer down the road at lunch sometime soon... perfect excuse to visit the
>> > Hooters across the street lol!
>> >
>> > -Cody Forbes
>> >
>> > On Jun 26, 2012, at 9:00 PM, Mark Rosenkrantz <speedracer.mark at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > NY (a PZEV state), Binghamton area.
>> >
>> > Just curious, as I've been told that in at least some cases, a "PZEV" car
>> > and a NON-pzev car are mechanically identical.  I've also heard what I
>> > found with the Subaru link.... the only changes are the catalytic converter
>> > and ECU tuning, but I've never heard the EVAP system was changed in any
>> > vehicle to make it PZEV compliant.  Just don't let my curiosity make this
>> > ending up a Torsen thread.  =)
>> >
>> > Clearly, there are different manufacturers out there, and evolution has
>> > happened with time.  So I was trying to use VAG cars to compare.
>> >
>> > Mark Rosenkrantz
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jun 26, 2012 at 7:19 PM, Cody Forbes <cody at 5000tq.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> What state are you in? (sorry if I missed it)
>> >>
>> >> -Cody Forbes
>> >>
>> >> On Jun 26, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Mark Rosenkrantz <speedracer.mark at gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I took delivery of a 2012 VW Jetta GLi Autobahn with Navigation, 6 speed
>> >> > manual last week, for the wife.  I can confirm it is a PZEV, and the
>> >> > sticker under the hood states "conforms to...."
>> >> >
>> >> > A little browsing found this:
>> >> > http://drive2.subaru.com/Fall08/Fall08_whatmakes.htm
>> >> >
>> >> > From fall of 2008, Subaru claims it's PZEV vehicles are available in
>> >> > non-PZEV states, as an option.
>> >> > In other words, the EPA didn't have a PZEV category, so as long as the
>> >> > vehicle fits into another EPA category (they all do), it's LEGAL to
>> >> sell a
>> >> > "PZEV" vehicle in any state a long as they meet all other regulations
>> >> (they
>> >> > all do).  It's just that the manufacturer doesn't get any "credits" for
>> >> > selling a PZEV vehicle in a "non-PZEV" state.  It's worth noting the
>> >> > careful wording on the underhood stickers as "conforms to" the
>> >> california
>> >> > PZEV requirements.  The window (Monroney) sticker can then be tailored,
>> >> > state-to-state.
>> >> >
>> >> > But in PZEV states, the manufacturers need to sell a certain percentage
>> >> of
>> >> > PZEV cars in the fleet every year to even be able to do business in the
>> >> > state.  I've read, and I don't know if this is true, that running a
>> >> riding
>> >> > lawnmower for a 1 acre lawn mowing session (1-2 gallons?) puts out more
>> >> > pollutants than 2000 miles in a PZEV car.  I've also read that in a high
>> >> > smog area, tailpipe emmission of a PZEV are often cleaner than the
>> >> > surrounding air.  Probably just hype, but still impressive if even
>> >> > semi-true.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyone in a non-PZEV state want to head to a VW dealer and look under
>> >> the
>> >> > hood for PZEV stickers on a Jetta or Golf 2.5L as well as a GLi or GTi
>> >> with
>> >> > the 2.0 TSI engine?  If so, I can send you pictures of my car's stickers
>> >> > and thier locations.
>> >> >
>> >> > Mark Rosenkrantz
>> >> > _______________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
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