[s-cars] Another Pizzo tale, was: S-car Head Repair

[Joseph Pizzimenti]

I feel it's time, once again, to recount a story of
when I broke something.
Two summers ago, my father and I happened upon a
rather clean 1991 V8 quattro for sale at a mechanic
locally.  Being the quattro fanatics that we are, I
made him buy it.  (Pizzo family tidbit: Old man Pizzo
has been into Audis since 1994, when he had a gorgeous
Pearl White UrS4 w/black leather, misses it dearly
every time I take him for a ride in mine.  He then
bought then quickly sold a Saab convertible in favor
of a 1998 A8 (Europa Blue/Ecru, IIRC), then it was
time for the A6 2.7T (Boring Silver) and now the
Black/Tan S8.  Yeah, we dig quattro.)  Anyhow, the car
had 75k on it and we picked it up for about 5 grand.
Great, except for the fact that I derive my
stubbornness, pigheadedness and damn lack of common
sense from the geezer.  Love him to death, but he just
wanted to drive the car before he could get it in for
an appointment to get the timing belt service done at
said mechanics' shop.  I told him to wait, but you
should have seen the smile on his face when he'd drive
around his 5k, knowing he'd found the perfect everyday
runabout for when he doesn't feel like worrying about
parking the new car in NYC.  So, as I'm about to
depart on a voyage of recalling my heritage and
getting friendly with some fine Mediterranean beauties
in Southern Italy, right on the JFK Expressway loop,
the timing belt snaps and you hear a virtual ONSLAUGHT
of valves not doing what they were intended to.
Anyway, long story short, towing from NYC to a
competent, if a bit slow, mechanic in Westchester is
NOT CHEAP, especially on a flatbed.  Getting both
heads machined and reinstalled with new water pump,
belts, and accessories isn't easy on the wallet
either.  So, if you're currently putting off that
timing belt service for lack of time, make time,
because we probably spent way too much money on this
car, but DAMMIT, we like the friggin thing.  Hey, it's
Pearl White AND has a torsen rear, how could you not
love "Leaky"?

Joe
--- Tom Mullane <tmullane at snet.net> wrote:
> Serge,
>
> According to the dealer's account of what happened,
> the valves were bent
> when the crank bolt was being removed, with the belt
> off.  When the belt is
> off, the cam does not turn; the cam must turn for
> more than two valves to
> contact the pistons, regardless of how far the crank
> is turned.
>
> Finally, the bolt was removed, the belt changed, and
> the engine started.
> Assuming that the belt was put back on properly,
> there would have been no
> further piston/valve contact except possibly some
> additional contact between
> the two bent (and now possibly stuck part way open)
> valves.  But even the
> valves that where bent during the crank bolt removal
> should not be able to
> cause significant damage to the pistons at this
> point; with the cam back in
> time, there would be nothing holding them open from
> the cam end.  Piston
> contact would just push then shut.
>
> My contention would be that the valves where not
> bent by the force of the
> engine running, but by the monkey lad with the big
> bar.  IME, damage to the
> piston *should* not be much more that a "clean spot
> " or small nick.  I
> would not recommend rebuilding an otherwise good
> running engine for such
> minor damage.
>
> The truth is, without actually seeing the damage, we
> can only speculate.
> But I have replaced valves on cars that have seen
> broken belts, and I have
> seen few pistons that gave me any reason to do more
> than change a few
> valves.  Think about how the damage occurred; it
> would have been a totally
> different situation if the belt let go on the
> interstate.
>
> Tom
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "serge" <serge411 at speakeasy.org>
> To: "Tom Mullane" <tmullane at snet.net>;
> <s-car-list at audifans.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 2:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Re: S-CAR-List digest, Vol 1
> #851 - 15 msgs
>
>
> > Tom Mullane wrote:
> >
> > > Take the offer, fix the car, and get on with
> your life.  The last thing
> I
> > > would want, if I were you, is to have them start
> removing pistons.  This
> is
> > > not a race car; a couple of marks on the top of
> a piston or two should
> not
> > > affect the drivability or life of the car.
> >
> > Ok, I was gong to pass on comment, but suddenly I
> find myself overfunded
> by
> > about $.02.
> >
> > I think the offer to replace the two valves is a
> nice starting point, but
> > not nearly adequate fix. If the car was started
> and allowed to run for ANY
> > length of time, I don't see how ALL the valves did
> not come in some
> contact
> > with ALL the pistons. Pistons are designed to
> withstand
> > compression/expansion force, not being smacked in
> the middle of the crown
> by
> > sharp metal objects (valves). ALL engine parts
> that were not designed to
> > come into contact with one another should be
> replaced. Remanufactured head
> > assembly seems to be a wise move, since parts,
> measurements, tests and
> > possible machining are time consuming and
> expensive.
> >
> > WRT marks on a piston, this is really troubling to
> me. What force is
> > required to bend the two valves? I would think it
> is something like the
> > force of taking a big F hammer and striking a cold
> steel chisel to the top
> > of the piston a couple times (hence the score
> marks). Would anyone be
> > comfortable with building a 9.4:1 compression
> engine that regularly sees
> 20
> > psi of boost, using that same piston?  I would not
> be. I have seen an EM
> and
> > turbo glowing cherry red (name withheld to
> protect....oh hell, we all know
> > it was Pizzo) from a spirited drive. That's a lot
> of heat, imagine what
> was
> > going on inside the combustion chamber to cause
> that. Still ok with using
> > that piston?
> >
> > On the service side, umm, not much there. Aside
> from a neat little dealer
> > dance to try to dodge some bullets. David has not
> had his car for how many
> > weeks? If the dealer has offered a remedy, is that
> not an admission of
> > wrongdoing? Therefore, are they not liable for any
> necessary repair work
> but
> > also rental car, attorney fees...
> >
> > To the state AG: Please make Hoffman provide a new
> engine for David's
> wife's
> > car, and make it an RS2 spec, just for the grief
> and time spent dealing
> with
> > them. Please fire the technician responsible, and
> place the dealership on
> > some kind of probation, during which they are not
> allowed to scrap any
> good
> > running engines.
> > <end rant>
> >
> >
> > Serge Filanovsky
> >
> > 95 S6 Avant
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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