[s-cars] Track Event Liability (very long)

[TM]

I asked this question in response to some stuff posted on Audiworld and
this is the answer I got, attached below. What do you all think about
this?
Now I'm a bit concerned (maybe a lot concerned) about attending any
track
events due to liability. Any attorneys want to chime in, esp. re: QCUSA,
PCA, BMWCCA, etc. club events?

Taka


Original text of conversation:

Post 1:
Question again - maybe others besides Young will reply
User account number (aid): 12846
Posted by Mark Dalen on 2002-05-06 07:43:31
With at least one insurance co excluding DE's, and other
to certainly follow, here are the questions...
Assuming your insurance excludes DE's)
1. Would you continue doing DE's without coverage?
2. Would you rent a race prepped car for DE's?
[snip-irrelevant]

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Post 2:
Just so everyone gets some perspective on this...
User account number (aid): 749
Posted by John/TSR on 2002-05-06 08:52:27
In Reply to: Question again - maybe others besides Young
will reply posted by Mark Dalen on 2002-05-06 07:43:31

[snip- irrelevant]

The exclusion of DE events and any track-use from automotive insurance
policies is significant. Not only is your damage not covered, it extends
to your medical and liability coverage. Bang up a passenger in your car?
You're on the hook. Don't think that the insurance companies aren't all
going to clamp down hard on this. You can continue to have fun your
street
car at DE's, but you need to be aware that you're on the hook if
something
bad happens. Would you rather total your $40,000 street car, or a $8000
track beater ?

If you're doing 20-30 track days a year, then it probably makes sense to
have your own track-prepped car. If, like most people, you're only doing
2-6 track days a year, then consider what you're spending on your on car
to prep it, and factor in the risks we've been hearing about.

Just another little homily from your friends here at Trained Seals
Labs......


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Post 3:
John- questions
User account number (aid): 5537
Posted by TM on 2002-05-10 06:51:49
In Reply to: Just so everyone gets some perspective on this...
posted by John/TSR on 2002-05-06 08:52:27

Now you've scared me- at a DE session, is there no insurance through the
organizers to cover personal injury and medical losses?

Considering that your standard automotive policy may not cover track
events
of any sort, there is no way I'm doing a track event if I'm to be held
personally liable in case I ball up my car and the instructor sitting
next
to me gets hurt.

Pls. email me direct if you want to talk about this off-line. Thanks.

TM

**********************************
Post 4:
Answers:
User account number (aid): 749
Posted by John/TSR on 2002-05-10 09:39:18
In Reply to: John- questions posted by TM on 2002-05-10 06:51:49

You've asked a really good question, since most people have absolutely
no idea what their rights and obligations are regarding insurance at DE
events.

As far as I know, there are no DE/HPDE event organizers, other than SCCA
and maybe NASA, that have participant medical insurance coverage.

Event organizers are required by each track to have "insurance", but
that
is a requirement to obtain LIABILITY insurance. That insurance covers
just
the track facility and associated businesses, and their staff. Tracks do
not require that their customers (the DE event organizers) provide
medical
coverage for their participants.

DE events and auto-crosses (as well as racing) run by the SCCA are
covered
by both their liability policies (thru insurers like K & K) and "excess
medical" coverage of up to $1million - "excess medical" being those
costs
that your own primary heath insurance doesn't cover (and if you don't
have
ANY, then the SCCA insurance covers all of it). NASA has a $50,000
"excess
medical" coverage for participants. These are the only two groups that I
know of that have ANY kind of medical insurance coverage.

You sign all sorts of waivers whenever you sign up for a DE event, and
sign
even more when you enter the track facility. Ever read them ? By signing
them,
you're releasing the track, the DE event organizers and all their second
cousins from any obligation to you if you're injured, killed, or suffer
any
other kind of loss. You're on your own, sweetheart. If you crash, either
your
medical insurance covers it, or your automotive policy covers it
(depends on
the state and your policy). If someone is in your car with you and is
injured,
their medical insurance might cover it, but their medical insurer might
go
after your auto insurer. If your auto insurer has a specific exclusion
for
any track activities, the person on the hook is YOU.

No one seems to understand this. Some are probably just in denial.

The change in auto insurance exclusions, helped along by the major
turmoil
in the insurance markets since last fall, will probably kill off a lot
of
the smaller DE clubs in the next two years. Track insurance rates are
SKYROCKETING right now. Just wait till next year.

When I'm racing with the SCCA, in a huge pack of cars, with people
crashing
and flipping and causing the usual carnage, I'm safer and have better
insurance coverage than if I'm poodling around the track at 5/10ths in
the
passenger seat of some newbie students' M3.