DSY in UrS4 vs. UrS6, was RE: [s-cars] Temp & Trans Question

[Robert B.]

Hi Charlie:

I hope that you don't mind me copying the S-List on this one.  I feel that
it is important.

So, I just got back from Mr. Kluge's and have lots of information. He was in
a great mood and was more interested in speaking with my pregnant wife than
talking Audis so I was able to pick his brain a bit. More imporatantly, I
brought my company's old digital camera and took tons of pictures. I'm not
sure how good they will turn out because the camera takes awful pictures in
low light conditions. I'll download them Monday and send what I have.

First and foremost. There are 4 different mainshafts. A skinny version used
in Diesel cars and a fat version used in everything else brokne down into
small and wide first gears. This matrix = 4 different mainshafts. After
1995, Audi introduced the wide first and also began using the skinny version
not only in Diesels but also on the RS2, later on the RS4. BTW, ETKA is
wrong about the CRB. The CRB is only installed in 1996 RS2s! I've seen about
20 RS2s being parted and all pre 95 models had CGRs!! No wonder a CRB is so
hard to find. YES, I have pictures showing the difference of the mainshafts.
I'll send them to you on Monday... I also have a side by side pic of the
wide and small first gear.

There's more. Someone in the US sent me 2 center cases from a US 1996 CBD
(S6 5 speed) and even though the center cases have the bump and Procon 10
bosses, the case is NOT milled internally to accept the wide first. Yup, I
have pictures of that center case and a machined one side by side so you can
see what I mean. The case has to be milled internally or the wide first will
rub on the inside of the case. What this means is that the center case
"bump" is not a realiable indicator that the trans has a wide first !!

It gets worse. A trans can have a wide center case and even the 105H wide
gear mainshaft, but still use the 257D narrow first gear. A good example of
this is the DSY (99+ Euro S4)! I remember that I once had to buy a new $300
first gear for a DSY that I bought thinking that it had the bumped area for
wide first PLUS ETKA showed the DSY as having a 105H mainshaft, so I was
sure that I was getting a wide first. No, the DSY uses the narrow first
gear. Mr. Kluge confirmed this.

In summary: the only way to be 100% sure that a 01E has a wide first gear is
to buy a bone stock CRB, DQT or any post 1996 V6-TDI trans OR bring your
trans to a rebuilder and have them do a complete tear down and check. You
can't relay on the center case alone!! You can't relay on ETKA either !!
Like Joseph Stalin once said: "to trust is good, to check is better."

@torsenboy: There are 2 only different Torsen units used by Audi: a light
duty one first used in 1998 on the 20V Ur-Quattro and later on the 01A
series and a heavy duty unit used on the 01E. The heavy duty Torsen is
physically twice as big as the light duty version. No, I did not take take
any pictures because he didn't have any light duty Torsen to compare to. He
did show me the different rear tailhousings and it is obvious then.

Finally some tidbits for your enjoyment:
The oil cooler only circulates the oil externally and only works when the
car is moving. There is no intermal oil cooling of the trans. A pre 1996 V8
will bolt up to a 20V as will a DQT (TDI trans) if you machine down one
dowel on the driver's side. All pre 1996 01Es use the same bolt pattern and
can be installed on any engine. In 1995 Audi started using the wide first
and also began making slight bellhousing changes so that it is hit and miss
after 1995 if trans X will work with motor Y. Recap: pre 1996, no problem:
post 1996 hit and miss.

The RS6 puts out so much torque that Audi is now designing a brand new 6
speed just for this motor. That's why the RS6 is automatic only for now. The
01E is good for about 650 NM of torque and the RS6 puts out 800 NM in midly
tuned form. Sorry, but he used metric so that 's what I'll use...

Have a great evening. I'll send lot of pictures on Monday, but be forewarned
they may be dark and very grainy...

Last but not least for non German listeners: AVOID Ebay.de. 3 people have
asked me to "assist" in transactions and 2 of them got totally ripped off.
I'll explain in more detail on Monday...

HTH, Rob

##################

>
> Hi Rob -
>
> Your descriptions are appreciated!  I'll try to put some stuff on the
> web pages about the B & C differences.
>
> You've heard the talk about DSY and UrS4/S6 bell housing differences,
> including the discussion of different dowel pin locations and somewhat
> different bolts.  My suspiscion for some time has been that this same
> type of differences exist in some of the V8 transmissions.  There has
> been lots of discussion on the V8 Quattro list over the years about
> the question of fitting a type 016 Quattro transmission to a V8.  Except
> for about 200 cars in 1991, all of the US/Canadian V8's and A8's have been
> automatic cars.  Anything you know about this topic, would be appreciated.
>
> When you see Mr. Kluge, if he's in a good mood could you ask him about
> the transmissions that have an oil pump?  Is this just used to circulate
> oil through an external cooler?  Or, does it also provide pressure oil
> feed lubrication to the internal gears?  Looking through ETKA, I have
> seen nothing that indicates internal oil distribution to the gears, such
> as internal feed tubes etc.
>
> As an interesting side note, Porsche used a type 915 transmission from '72
> until the early '80s.  In racing applications this transmission had an oil
> pump in the end (front) housing that both lubricated the gears and could
> circulate oil through an external cooler.  In oil pump transmissions there
> was an oil distribution tube that ran back into the transmission; this had
> small holes in it so that oil was sprayed directly on the gear sets.  All
> of the 915 transmission end housing castings had the casting done such
that
> an oil pump was possible, but none of the necessary machining had been
> done to the casting in the street car gearboxes.
>
> My belief is that the oil being sprayed on the gears provided a higher
> torque load capability on those gearboxes.  Remember, this was in the
> days of the 2.8L RSR 911, and the very early Porsche turbo race cars.
>
> The more pictures you can send me, the better.  They are appreciated!
>
>     - Charlie