[s-cars] Torsen and EDL (was: EDL Vs. Manual Diff Lock)

Fri Jan 17 14:50:02 EST 2003

Wish he drive the same way !!!!!
Sorry I could not resist.

Regards,
Frederic

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Pastore [mailto:rpastore at animalfeeds.com]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 5:29 AM
To: 'Keith Maddock'; s-car-list at audifans.com; dohnal at hevanet.com
Subject: RE: [s-cars] Torsen and EDL (was: EDL Vs. Manual Diff Lock)

Keith:

Brilliant post!

I have never seen such a complex set of variables explained so clearly
in my entire life.

This list is awesome!

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Maddock [mailto:Keith.Maddock at trw.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 10:08 PM
To: s-car-list at audifans.com; dohnal at hevanet.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Torsen and EDL (was: EDL Vs. Manual Diff Lock)

--
Wayne,

Good thinking but you are missing a few non-obvious items.  Your items
#1 and #2 are reversed, which is a big difference.

1) With the torsen, you'll get 3.5 to 4 time more torque to the
high-traction wheel before the low-traction wheel even slips, compared
to a open -diff

2)  At the point of slip, yes the EDL will add brake torque, which may
confuse the torsen a little bit temporarily, and cause it to reduce the
bias ratio a little bit.  However since the total torque at the
low-traction wheel is increasing, the total torque at the high-traction
wheel will also increase.  Depending on the surface, the bias ratio may
not even decrease, as the traction potential of the high-traction wheel
may still be higher than the low-traction wheel + brake applied.  You
can see this in the graphs in the paper.  However, in the end, the EDL
and torsen will give you more torque to the high-mu wheel.

Basically, the torsen prevents the EDL from needing to be used at all in
most normal driving circumstances. In extreme mu-split conditions, the
EDL will kick in, and offer more tractive torque to the high-traction
wheel than torsen could do by itself.

f you haven't read the attached paper, please do so, section 4,
especially 4.3 are the relevant sections. (attachment stripped for List,
sorry, email me off-list for copies)

Consider the following examples:

RWD car (for simplicity)  with 3000 ft-lbs of torque at the rear axle in
first gear..

Extreme split-mu surface such that the Left wheel will slip at 100
ft-lbs of torque (ice), and the Right wheel will slip at 1000.
(pavement) EDL limited to 500 ft-lbs of brake apply (by software to
prevent brake overheat, pad wear)

Open Diff Case:
Fixed Bias Ratio of 1:1
Wheelslip obtained at 7% engine output.
Left Wheel Max Tractive Torque: 100 ft-lbs
Right Wheel Max Tractive Torque: 100 ft-lbs
Total acceleration torque: 200 ft-lbs

Torsen Case:
Max Bias Ratio 4:1
Wheelslip obtained at 17% engine output
Left Wheel Max Tractive Torque: 100 ft-lbs
Right Wheel Max Tractive Torque: 400 ft-lbs
Total acceleration torque: 500 ft-lbs

EDL Case
Fixed Bias Ratio of 1:1
EDL kicks in nearly immediately at light throttle (at 7% of engine
output) as left wheel spins. EDL applies left brake up to 500 ft-lbs as
driver increases throttle Left Wheel Max Tractive Torque: 100 ft-lbs
(500 ft-lbs going into brake dust and heat) Right Wheel Max Tractive
Torque: 600 ft-lbs Total acceleration torque: 700 ft-lbs

EDL+Torsen Case
Max Bias Ratio 4:1
EDL doesnt kick in until 17% engine output when left wheel spins. EDL
applies left brake up to 500 ft-lbs as driver increases throttle Left
Wheel Max Tractive Torque: 100 ft-lbs  (500 ft-lbs going into brake dust
and heat) Right Wheel Max Tractive Torque: 1000 ft-lbs (capable of up to
2400, surface limited at 1000) Total acceleration torque: 1100 ft-lbs

(please excuse any typos, I had to rush this out)

Make sense?

Cheers,
Keith

****************************************************************
Keith Maddock, TRW Automotive,  Koblenz, Germany
Slip Control Systems, Systems Design, Traction Control
+49 (0)261/ 895 2474     -    -    keith.maddock at trw.com

>>> "Wayne Dohnal" <dohnal at hevanet.com> 03:16:13 17.01.2003 >>>
<snip>
>Jeremy, my personal suggestion is to buy a 95.5 with EDL and then
>install a
Torsen.
<snip>
>I have a good technical paper from the ZexelTorsen boys that describes
>well
the benefits of Torsen with EDL, I can forward to anyone interested.
<snip>

After applying a little knowledge and logic, which can of course be
dangerous, this doesn't make sense to me.  Wouldn't the EDL and Torsen
work against each other?  Here's what I figure: (1) A rear wheel slips.
(2) Torsen wants to transfer torque to the wheel with traction. (3) EDL
detects the slip and starts braking the slipping wheel. (4) Torsen
doesn't know the difference between traction and EDL braking, so it
transfers more torque to the slipping wheel, fighting the EDL. (5) EDL
sees the wheel slipping more and brakes it harder, encouraging the
Torsen to send more torque, and so forth.

Am I missing something obvious here?

Wayne Dohnal
1994 S4

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