[s-cars] RS2 Injectors

Sun Jun 29 11:06:52 EDT 2003

Calvin,

When I first started tuning cars I didn't earn nor really wanted to earn a
living with this but gradually after getting fired from my initial
workplace, it has started to become my principal activity. Then, when I'm
talking about investments, it's above the 10k Euro mark, which I don't
think any DIYer would be ready to spend in order to be able to "home tune"
his car, nor just to do basic repair and troubleshooting. This investment
doesn't only include an eprom programmer, an EGT gauge and a WB O2 sensor
(which are finally cheap!) but also other things that make I can tune a car
for whatever setup I want and I know how all the programming of these cars
works, not only parts of it discovered with empirical theories and so on...

SJM has a very detailed guide for troubleshooting and I can assure you no
programming knowledge is necessary in order to find a problem on a car.

So, I fully understand your point but there are still some things that
people who are "users only" simply don't need to know so I can't share all
I know, nor do I want to, but when I'm able to help someone troubleshooting
his car or when some more in-depth things need to be explained (like this
RS2 injectors/O2 sensor stuff), I gladly do so and my statement about
"can't say too much" was just meant to say that there's a limit to what I
can explain and what I can't....

Thanks,

Mihnea

At 00:35 29/06/2003 -0600, Calvin & Diana Craig wrote:
>Mihnea,
>
>Do you make your living off this stuff?  If so, I understand and thanks for
>your contributions.
>
>If not, I must say that most every lesson on this list has come at some cost
>to some individual and we still share our information to help someone else
>not spend that money.  I don't get any pleasure out of seeing another lister
>struggle with a problem and have to spend money needlessly if I know the
>answer that can save them the money and aggravation.
>
>--Calvin
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mihnea Cotet [mailto:mik at info.fundp.ac.be]
>Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2003 3:58 AM
>To: Calvin & Diana Craig; Russ Panneton; Mark Strangways
>Cc: Christopher Gharibo; * S List
>Subject: RE: [s-cars] RS2 Injectors
>
>
>Calvin, I know what the point of the list is about and this is why I have
>answered, but I can't say too much because some things I know cost me lots
>of money and obviously you didn't spend it but I did. Furthermore, if I
>were to explain to everyone how the Motronic really works every time
>someone has a problem, people interested in programming would know what
>they need to know in order to make their own mods, which is not my interest.
>
>Sorry for mentioning "I can't say too much", next time I won't say it but
>my point was "there's much more than what you'd think behind all this" but
>almost no one knows it.
>
>
>Mihnea
>
>
>At 21:08 27/06/2003 -0600, Calvin & Diana Craig wrote:
> >Mihnea,
> >
> >I don't understand the "can't say too much" thing.  I guess I thought the
> >whole point of the list was so people could learn from each other and save
> >each other the time and effort of re-inventing the wheel, so to speak.
> >
> >--Calvin
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: s-car-list-admin at audifans.com
> >[mailto:s-car-list-admin at audifans.com]On Behalf Of Mihnea Cotet
> >Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 5:12 PM
> >To: Russ Panneton; Mark Strangways
> >Cc: Christopher Gharibo; * S List
> >Subject: Re: [s-cars] RS2 Injectors
> >
> >
> >Hi guys,
> >
> >
> >I can't say too much here because there are too many eyes open that
> >shouldn't read that but during part throttle the ECU uses direct feedback
> >from the O2 sensor in order to have a clean mixture, however that mixture
> >depends on the programming. At WOT, the ECU still uses feedback from the O2
> >sensor but differently and at different cyclings, meaning that it doesn't
> >adjust the mixture as it does in "closed loop".. Actually, closed and open
> >loop are pretty much BS IMHO, it's more like part and full throttle and 2
> >different ways of interpreting the O2 sensor output but too few people know
> >that and I'd can't say too much either.
> >
> >Anyway, RS2 injectors run a lot better with chips programmed accordingly,
> >when run on stock chips they can run pretty fine under part throttle but
> >the mixture will be way too rich at WOT.
> >
> >
> >HTH,
> >
> >Mihnea
> >
> >
> >At 12:58 27/06/2003 -0600, Russ Panneton wrote:
> > >--
> > >[ Picked text/plain from multipart/alternative ]
> > >Mark,
> > >
> > >In light throttle cruise, I believe our cars run closed loop and the ECU
> > >will eventually trim the A/F ratio to something clean at the tailpipe.
> > >  But I also bet it runs open loop when the HP demand goes up because our
> > >"narrow band" O2 sensors don't indicate usefully when the mixture gets
> > >rich enough to produce good power.  Once the ECU goes open loop, all the
> > >parameters better be correctly matched or else.  What I continue to
> > >wonder is if the ECU "trim" values it adaptively computes are applied
> > >during open loop operation?
> > >
> > >Russ
> > >
> > >Mark Strangways wrote:
> > >
> > > >This brings me to another question then.
> > > >Do our ecu's not adjust the duty cycle of the injectors based on a
>closed
> > > >loop feedback from the O2 sensor ?
> > > >Should then the ecu not be able to compensate for the different CC's of
> >the
> > > >injectors ? Provided of course that it doesn't force the duty cycle
>outta
> > > >range and throw errors.
> > > >The whole concept of a computer control and all these sensor is to give
> >the
> > > >engine some intelligence, or does it just follow lookup maps ?
> > > >
> > > >Mark S
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Mihnea Cotet" <mik at info.fundp.ac.be>
> > > >To: "Christopher Gharibo" <cgharibo at usa.net>; "* S List"
> > > ><s-car-list at audifans.com>
> > > >Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 7:04 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: [s-cars] RS2 Injectors
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>Chris,
> > > >>
> > > >>The RS2 injectors don't have any disadvantages other than the fact
>that
> > > >>you'll need to have your ECU rechipped in order to take advantage of
> >them
> > > >>and of the RS2 turbo. They are a direct replacement. Depending on what
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >else
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>you install in your car along with your RS2 turbo, you can have up to
> >380
> > > >>HP, but the RS2 injectors aren't really necessary before 350...
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>HTH,
> > > >>
> > > >>Mihnea
> > > >>
> > > >>At 06:52 27/06/2003 -0400, Christopher Gharibo wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>I have Stage I upgrade on my S6 and may go for RS2 turbo in the
>future.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>What are the performance improvements and disadvantages of RS2
> >injectors?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >Are
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>>these injectors a direct replacement?
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Thanks,
> > > >>>Chris
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