[s-cars] Re: Air to Water intercoolers

[mlp qwest]

Dave - I don't hold with perpetual motion or violation of one or more of the
laws of thermodynamics.  I think we would be in complete agreement Dave, if
the Intracooler / AC concept doesn't include as a part of its design some
kind of heat reservoir, ... probably a pretty large reservoir.  I've only
tried to bring up some of the air to water debate in response to ? was it
Todd's original "Why hasn't anyone thought of this for the UrS4/6's...?"
post.  OTOH the $5999 IC fan (did I miss a decimal   point or comma in there
somewhere?) sounds very, very reasonable to me Dave.

What I do think the air to water crowd can (at least claim) to be able to do
that we, poor, misguided, air to air IC folks can't, is STORE or BANK an
accumulation of low temperature via the A/C unit IF their system includes a
large enough reservoir, &/or appropriate reservoir storage medium.  I.e.,
something like the drag racer groups running their fuel &/or intake air
through a chest of ice.

I'm not advocating TTM's  "Intracooler" whether it be version I or II,
particularly for "normal" S-car road course driving.  OTOH, if some one on
the list were into drag racing kinds of scenarios, and think they will have
plenty of time to drive around with the A/C running full bore, long enough
to cool off a reservoir of ??? (indeterminate size) gallons of heat transfer
medium between 1/4tr mile runs, then by all means I hope they'll have at an
air to water solution.

On a hot summer day, I would guess you ought to be able to cool the air
water exchange medium down to something significantly below ambient to give
you at least one cool spring day run?  I'm sure however that while the A/C
chilled air to water system might sound pretty simple at first blush, I
suspect its actual implementation would prove to be quite a bit more
complicated, and I have doubts as to its effectiveness.  For example, my
guess is, and it's only a guess, you would have to isolate the chilled water
from the intake air heat exchange process UNTIL you were ready to draw down
on the bank of chilled water; otherwise you'd be running with what ever
ambient temperature the "regular" air to water IC radiator was exposed to.
Isolating the "super" chilled water from the rest of the system until called
for, and then "switching" delivery on at the right time would present some
considerable plumbing & control problems.

I agree with you.  If the TTM system claims that a car's AC system alone
could keep up with cooling engine intake air volumes, bringing boosted air
intake temps down to 33° F, they'd have to be breaking more than one "law" ~
including a few involving truth in advertising.  OTOH, if what the system is
doing is trying to chill a reservoir of water for brief burst of speed,
perhaps it would work in that limited context.

If some one on the list wants to pursue a better IC solution with an air to
water IC, me thinks the simpler, the better.  The best you will be able to
reliably count on isn't going to be better than ambient air temp as your
ultimate charge air temperature.  And, don't forget that in an Air to water
system, one has to cross 2x heat transfer barriers vs. one in the stock air
to air systems.  I think there is some efficiency loss that has to be
accounted for each time you move the heat from one medium to another.   The
real advantage to the air to water systems IMO is the flexibility they can
offer with respect to mounting and configuration layouts.  FWIW, there are,
at a minimum, at least 20 to 25 wheel horsepower gains, perhaps more,
available through intercooler improvements based on real dyno, not blue Levi
denim, runs with both the stock K24, as well as the larger RS2 K26
turbochargers.   And it doesn't even have to be obvious (photo) any more :-)

Mike "I'm sticking w/air to air, even if it is kind of thin up here below
Everboost" Pederson

~-----Original Message-----
~From: Djdawson2 at aol.com [mailto:Djdawson2 at aol.com]

~mlped at qwest.net writes:
~
~> A new item that is available is the INTRACOOLER II.

snips

Dave responds

~
~Mike,
~
~Just three concepts for all to consider concerning the INTRACOOLER
~II.  Thermodynamics, Entropy, and Perpetual Motion.
~Does anyone think you will get more horsepower out of the system
~after using the compressor to cool the intake air?  I suggest
~using current from the alternator to run a fan that provides more
~air over the intercooler.  I would sell this device for only $599.
~Any takers?
~Dave in CO
~
~