[s-cars] Fuzz logic vs adaptive learning

[QSHIPQ at aol.com]

Please
Don't do anything for my peace of mind Kirby.  My modus on these lists is to 
provoke thought and alternative views to skin cats based on my experiences.  
What I've seen is a lot of copying:  Software, hardware, controllers, turbos, 
etc.  That all assumes what others have done is the right or only way.  Hap 
should be the first to admit that what he has isn't sorted, which means "right" 
is in a context.  In the case of the HP wars, I suspect more HP will come at 
the expense of less comfort in doing so.  It's the nature of 2.3liter motors.

In the context of controlling boost, the matrix in the motronic is bigger 
than the best fuzzy logic controller on the market today.  Which means to me, 
that I take great peace of mind in knowing that those without controllers are 
doing more for the life of the engine, than one possibly focused on the first 
gear boost levels of an S car (lots of torque, lots of mass, lots of boost, lots 
of traction = something gives).

Also knowing that most of the software tweeksters we are familiar with are 
lurking on these lists, means you have the makings for better programming and/of 
better hardware.  Let's also not forget that previous to the motronic, the 
MAC 11/14 computer controlled boost was 'top feeder', so we know it does work on 
the I5.

To date, I see a lot of money spent on hardware that could be software, or in 
software that could be hardware.  Just because an external boost controller 
makes more boost sooner, doesn't make it a better tool.  It's quite possible 
the tool one is using is more sophisticated at the task (by matrix definition - 
motronic is), it just may be hampered by a software OR hardware problem.  
Either/both of which could be pretty easily addressed IMO.  That said Kirby, I'm 
not sure that a top feed control boost is necessarily better than a bottom 
feeder (knowing the hi/lo nature of frequency valves in general), but certainly 
Minhea confirms that it's not that big of a deal to test it.  Me, I'd rather see 
someone program in a stepper motor to a bottom feeder WG, but that's just for 
my peace of mind.

IMO, no boost controller on the market today works harder than Motronic, 
getting motronic to work smarter is the trick.

My .02 arbitraged thru the peso

Scott Justusson


In a message dated 1/25/2004 7:08:26 PM Central Standard Time, 
kirby.a.smith at verizon.net writes:
Mihnea:

In my spare time?  :)  

Thanks for the offer.  I think such an approach would have to start with
determining what WGFV would be best to use.  There have been comments by
Scott that the OEM one is rather sluggish and has limitations in its
duty cycle bounds.  Perhaps the A'pexi valve (already installed) would
be faster/better ranging.  I don't know whether it could be adapted but
I could measure the voltage it gets when it is considerably warmer
outside.  Does the OEM WGFV see an approximately 12 Vdc signal or is it
driven from a current limiting circuit?  

I left the OEM valve connected to the ECU with caps on the ends so it
would remain clean inside.  If it is disconnected electrically, rumor
has it a code is thrown.  If the OEM WGFV is good enough, it would
certainly be more widely applicable.  I guess I wouldn't terribly mind
having the A'pexi reduced to an ultimate meter to gain Scott's peace of
mind.  ^_^

But, the Motronic approach does beg the question of first gear boost
limiting.  The Motronic would have to compare vehicle speed with rpm to
switch maps.  Or, I could just wimp out in first and never, ever get
carried away.  

kirby


Mihnea Cotet wrote:
> 
> Kirby,
> 
> The Motronic uses a 10x16 points boost map, as well as a 10x16 points WGFV
> duty cycle map. The boost values are "target values" and the FV duty cycles
> are set to reach the desired boost levels with a given WG spring tension.
> 
> Programming the Motronic for top feed control sounds easy enough to me as
> long as a WGFV (or sort of) is still there, it's a matter of about one hour
> of real-time tuning with my on-line emulator plugged into the ECU. Let me
> know if you feel like experimenting this spring :-))))
> 
> HTH,
> 
> Mihnea
>