[s-cars] Brake Light and Thrumming Pedal

[brian hoeft]

doug,
first, i'll say my car passed this test, so i cannot say for certain from my
experience.  but i can say that i tested just after the car was OFF,, once
w/untouched brakes,, once w/pumped brakes just because.

be careful, the line you should be disconnecting (correct me if im wrong
anyone) is the return -low pressure- line @12o' clock on the servo..

you, or your number one son, can seriously get blasted  w/unfriendly fluid
if the wrong line is pressurized/opened .. i also stepped on my brakes a
good 10/20 times -even though solid after two- before i swapped the servo/mc
to be safe.

another thing i was thinking to tell, is now looking at the A pillar...  i
could have easily taken some painters tape and masked off that area. .. i
didnt and now theres some smudges,, sa da tay, ill scrub some , but
whatever, figgerd id let you know.  got some injuries im nursing, used it as
a chinup bar sliding in/out of my pedalcluster`layer `<bwahaha> while
swapping the servo.

blablabla, peace


On 7/2/06, Douglas Fifield <douglas.fifield at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> All - followup.
>
> Got the fitting loose. Got the bending tool - used it.  Clamped return
> line on servo and swapped it for the 8" brake line mit tube into
> bottle.  Started engine and watched a solid, pulsing flow of fluid
> fill the tube and drain into the bottle.
>
> Please confirm that this means my servo is toast.  If so, I will try
> to source one tomorrow.
>
> D.
>
> On 7/2/06, brian hoeft <qweblog at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > i used a standard craftsman wrench..
> >
> > first make sure your turning it the proper way.. i know it sounds dumb
> but
> > it isnt.
> >
> > you can typically feel when its gonna give and strip but its likely itll
> > give and bust a knuckle just before that.  i made sure my hand was clear
> of
> > danger and went at it like i meant it.  dont recall if i used PBblaster,
> but
> > if youre worried you can wipe the excess before breaking it free..
> >
> > tis all for now, //brian
> >
> >
> > On 7/2/06, Douglas Fifield <douglas.fifield at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > OK, I'll check.  Here is my other question for the day.  How in blazes
> > > to you get the fitting on the return line off?  I can't find clearance
> > > for my 11 mm brake fitting wrench.  I can get a cheap 11 mm stubby on
> > > there, but it didn't want to budge and I am afraid of using too much
> > > force with that wrench and stripping the hex head on the fitting.
> > >
> > > I am leary of using penetrating oil in this application.
> > >
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > D.
> > >
> > > On 7/2/06, brian hoeft <qweblog at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > that same NAPA should sell a tube bender,the guys at the counter
> might
> > know
> > > > it better for bending brake lines.. looks kind of like a hockey
> stick
> > w/a
> > > > groove to hold the line in place.
> > > >
> > > > should be just a few bucks for the one you'll need.
> > > >
> > > > good luck, //brian
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 7/1/06, Douglas Fifield <douglas.fifield at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Fred,
> > > > >
> > > > > I just walked into the house from NAPA with an 8" section of
> metric
> > > > > line.  Sounds just like what you describe.  Do you have advice on
> how
> > > > > to bend it without kinking it?
> > > > >
> > > > > D.
> > > > >
> > > > > On 7/1/06, Fred Munro < munrof at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > Douglas;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ask for 3/16" European metric brake line. It will have the
> proper
> > flare
> > > > and nut.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've attached a photo of my test apparatus.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fred
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Douglas Fifield [mailto: douglas.fifield at gmail.com]
> > > > > > Sent: July 1, 2006 12:16 PM
> > > > > > To: Fred Munro
> > > > > > Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [s-cars] Brake Light and Thrumming Pedal
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, if I want to test the servo as described and go to the FLAPS
> to
> > > > > > get a piece of metric brake line, is there just one size of
> flanged
> > > > > > fitting, or do I need to know the correct size?  If the latter,
> can
> > > > > > someone supply that info?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Douglas
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 6/30/06, Fred Munro < munrof at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > Douglas;
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the level doesn't fall, the bomb is not being charged with
> > fluid.
> > > > This could be a really bad servo or a bad pump. At this point I'd do
> the
> > > > servo test to rule that out. A totally dead bomb would also not draw
> > fluid
> > > > out of the reservoir, but it should allow the system to pressurize
> and
> > the
> > > > light would go out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I replaced the servo in a couple hours. You don't need to do a
> > brake
> > > > bleed - you remove the two bolts securing the master cylinder to the
> > servo,
> > > > release the brake lines to the MC from the multi-line clamp, and
> slide
> > the
> > > > MC off the servo without removing the brake lines. When the new
> servo is
> > > > installed, you slide the MC back onto the servo and bolt it up. You
> > don't
> > > > have to open up the lines or bleed the brakes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As Brian mentioned, the servo is secured by four 13mm nuts
> that
> > also
> > > > secure the pedal cluster. The top left nut is a bit tricky as Brian
> > points
> > > > out, but I got it using 18" of 1/4" drive extensions and a flex end.
> You
> > > > have to use 1/4" drive stuff or you can't see past the extensions to
> the
> > > > nut. You have to use multiple extensions and assemble them as you
> insert
> > > > them through the hole in the pedal cluster. Remember to get a new
> sponge
> > > > gasket to seal the servo to the firewall. Unfortunately I didn't do
> a
> > > > write-up on this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hopefully you don't need a servo, but the alternative is
> probably
> > the
> > > > pump. If the servo tests good, you'll have to make up a pressure
> testing
> > rig
> > > > or take the car to the dealer to test the pump output pressure.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > HTH
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fred
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Douglas Fifield [mailto:douglas.fifield at gmail.com ]
> > > > > > > Sent: June 30, 2006 11:07 AM
> > > > > > > To: Fred Munro
> > > > > > > Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [s-cars] Brake Light and Thrumming Pedal
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fred and Everyone Else,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Pushed the car out of the garage this morning, raised hood,
> had #1
> > son
> > > > > > > start engine while I watched G002000 level in resivoir.  It
> was
> > above
> > > > > > > the full mark at about the seam level around the top of the
> tank.
> > It
> > > > > > > did not move discernably the whole time the engine was
> running.
> > Brake
> > > > > > > light was on and brake pedal thrumming.  Turned engine off and
> > brake
> > > > > > > pedal was rock hard.  Resivoir level never changed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What does this tell us?  I will try to find the materials to
> do
> > the
> > > > > > > servo leak test, but I don't have those materials readily
> > available.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > D.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 6/29/06, Fred Munro <munrof at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Douglas;
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do the reservoir drawdown test I detailed in my earlier
> post. If
> > the
> > > > bomb is OK and the servo is leaking, the pump will partially charge
> the
> > bomb
> > > > and pull oil out of the reservoir with the engine running. Once you
> stop
> > the
> > > > engine, the oil will leak back out of the bomb through the servo and
> > fill up
> > > > the reservoir. If this happens, you'll have to test the servo to
> isolate
> > it
> > > > as the cause. This leak will be too large to do the Bentley servo
> test.
> > You
> > > > should use a test rig similar to what I described.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the bomb has failed, the pump will not put much oil into
> it
> > and
> > > > the level in the reservoir won't change much.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Fred
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > From: Douglas Fifield [mailto: douglas.fifield at gmail.com]
> > > > > > > > Sent: June 29, 2006 4:24 PM
> > > > > > > > To: Fred Munro
> > > > > > > > Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [s-cars] Brake Light and Thrumming Pedal
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Fred et al,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Things have progressed on the brake problem front.  Now, as
> soon
> > as
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > turn off the engine, the brake pedal goes rock hard.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am not sure if this means the bomb has failed, or if the
> servo
> > is
> > > > > > > > leaking so badly that the bomb cannot be pressurized.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any thoughts?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > D.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 6/28/06, Fred Munro <munrof at sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Douglas;
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The bomb has depressurized overnight. The brake light is
> on to
> > > > warn of low
> > > > > > > > > pressure in the brake boost system. The thrumming brake
> pedal
> > is
> > > > caused by
> > > > > > > > > the pressure pulses from the positive displacement
> hydraulic
> > pump.
> > > > When you
> > > > > > > > > apply the brakes with no stored pressure in the bomb, the
> > boost
> > > > pressure
> > > > > > > > > comes from the pump and you feel the high and low pressure
> > pulses
> > > > as
> > > > > > > > > vibration in the brake pedal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The bomb discharges due to a leaking check valve in the
> bomb
> > or a
> > > > leaking
> > > > > > > > > brake servo. I used to believe the bomb check valve was
> the
> > usual
> > > > culprit,
> > > > > > > > > but I now suspect the servo is usually at fault. The servo
> can
> > > > leak by so
> > > > > > > > > badly that the pump will never built up enough pressure to
> > turn
> > > > off the
> > > > > > > > > warning light - I just had this problem in my '97 S6. If
> your
> > > > warning light
> > > > > > > > > doesn't go off, this is most likely your problem. A bad
> bomb
> > check
> > > > valve
> > > > > > > > > will not prevent the bomb from pressurizing to design
> > pressure.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Flushing the central hydraulic fluid sometimes corrects
> the
> > > > problem. Clean
> > > > > > > > > the strainer in the reservoir when you flush the fluid.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You can determine if you have a bad servo or check valve
> leak
> > by
> > > > running the
> > > > > > > > > engine and noting the level in the reservoir. Shut off the
> > engine
> > > > and watch
> > > > > > > > > the level. If you can see it visibly rising, either the
> servo
> > is
> > > > toast or
> > > > > > > > > the bomb check valve is leaking badly. To test the servo,
> run
> > the
> > > > engine to
> > > > > > > > > charge the bomb. Stop the engine. Remove the RETURN line
> on
> > the
> > > > servo (the
> > > > > > > > > top connection). If more than a few drops of oil leaks
> out,
> > the
> > > > servo is
> > > > > > > > > kaput. If you can see the fluid level rise in the
> reservoir,
> > this
> > > > test is
> > > > > > > > > not a good one for two reasons:
> > > > > > > > > 1. By the time you get the return line off, all the
> pressure
> > has
> > > > leaked out
> > > > > > > > > and no oil will be released.
> > > > > > > > > 2. If you do get the line off in time, so much oil will
> come
> > out
> > > > you'll have
> > > > > > > > > it all over the rack and the driveway.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I built a test rig to test my servo. I discharged the bomb
> > > > completely by
> > > > > > > > > pumping the brakes and removed the servo return line. I
> > clamped
> > > > off the
> > > > > > > > > rubber section of the return line with a brake hose clamp.
> I
> > bent
> > > > a 8"
> > > > > > > > > section of pre-made metric brake line at 90 degrees and
> > threaded
> > > > one end
> > > > > > > > > into the return line port. I attached a plastic hose on
> the
> > other
> > > > end and
> > > > > > > > > ran the hose into a jar. Start the engine (do NOT apply
> the
> > > > brakes!!!) and
> > > > > > > > > watch the plastic line. A flow of oil indicates a leaking
> > servo.
> > > > On the '97
> > > > > > > > > the oil flow was a steady stream - the servo was
> completely
> > shot.
> > > > Funny, the
> > > > > > > > > car had just been certified too. That explained why the
> > warning
> > > > light was
> > > > > > > > > disconnected......
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > HTH
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Fred Munro
> > > > > > > > > '97 S6
> > > > > > > > > '94 S4
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
> > > > > > > > > [mailto: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of
> Douglas
> > > > Fifield
> > > > > > > > > Sent: June 28, 2006 9:27 PM
> > > > > > > > > To: s-car-list at audifans.com
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [s-cars] Brake Light and Thrumming Pedal
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hedz,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have been over this one before, but I keep hoping that
> > someone
> > > > will
> > > > > > > > > have figured it out and give me a clue.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On and off, my S6 has had periods where the brake light
> stays
> > on
> > > > > > > > > beyond the normal 20 or so seconds in the morning.  These
> > sessions
> > > > > > > > > have been accompaning by a thrumming brake pedal and as
> long
> > as
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > continues, the brake light stays on.  In the past, the
> > thrumming
> > > > would
> > > > > > > > > eventually stop and a few seconds later, the light would
> go
> > out.
> > > > > > > > > Today, it stayed with me and now the car is in the garage.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It seems to stop normally.  Just had the brakes flushed
> last
> > week
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > the fluid levels are good.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Any ideas?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Douglas in MN
> > > > > > > > > 95.5 Audi S//6 Avant
> > > > > > > > > 73 BMW R60/5 mit Toaster Tank
> > > > > > > > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > S-CAR-List mailing list
> > > > > > > > > S-CAR-List at audifans.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/s-car-list
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Douglas in MN
> > > > > > > > 95.5 Audi S//6 Avant
> > > > > > > > 73 BMW R60/5 mit Toaster Tank
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Douglas in MN
> > > > > > > 95.5 Audi S//6 Avant
> > > > > > > 73 BMW R60/5 mit Toaster Tank
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Douglas in MN
> > > > > > 95.5 Audi S//6 Avant
> > > > > > 73 BMW R60/5 mit Toaster Tank
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Douglas in MN
> > > > > 95.5 Audi S//6 Avant
> > > > > 73 BMW R60/5 mit Toaster Tank
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > S-CAR-List mailing list
> > > > > S-CAR-List at audifans.com
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Douglas in MN
> > > 95.5 Audi S//6 Avant
> > > 73 BMW R60/5 mit Toaster Tank
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Douglas in MN
> 95.5 Audi S//6 Avant
> 73 BMW R60/5 mit Toaster Tank
>