[s-cars] Woah! pics link

Wed Jul 18 19:22:59 EDT 2007

I implied nothing about equating anything about the engineering between 
various systems.
I can't find Taka's words either "careless" or "provocative", and I for one 
take some offense to it.
I think you are reading what U want to read from it.

How much engineering do you think the BIRA folks did ?
I would say not all that much other than balanced materials selection and 
shape. They definitely imply no liability from using their pieces, as the 
should.

If you want data, go gather it because I really don't think you will find it 
otherwise.
Trash BIRA all you like, they can't give you what they do not have.
I'm sure ECS would provide the same.

At this point I am not even sure why I am replying anymore.

Mark
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Phillips" <gcmschemist at gmail.com>
To: "Mark Strangways" <StrangConst at rogers.com>
Cc: <s-car-list at audifans.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Woah! pics link

> Mark,
>
> Like I said, I don't know if his words are merely careless, or
> deliberately provocative.
>
> And I absolutely disagree with your implied equating of the
> engineering contained within the various set-ups.
>
> The RS2 stuff was designed for legal, road-going cars.  The way we
> apply it is not DOT-approved, that's true.  But I'd bet on the
> engineering staff at Porsche/Audi on any day.  I'm guessing most
> everyone would, given the choices.  And the stakes are higher than
> money, IMO.
>
> The fact that Greg decided to nuke me off the BIRA list rather than
> produce some sort of data as to the engineering speaks large volumes
> to me.  After all, if the questions are uncomfortable, it must be the
> *questioner* that is the problem, right?  I will continue to question,
> until data is forthcoming.
>
> I agree with the inspection aspect, but have always taken it to mean
> inspection of parts even when they are OEM from the factory.
>
> On 7/18/07, Mark Strangways <StrangConst at rogers.com> wrote:
>> Not to put words into Taka's mouth, but...
>>
>> I think you may be reading well into what he was saying.
>> No where do I hear him saying (or read) that bira brackets are fine.
>> Mine are... if that interests you !!!
>>
>> Perhaps we should all remember that these "upgrades" are NOT for highway 
>> use
>> anyways.
>> Debating whether or not Audi / Porsche are better made or not is rather 
>> mute
>> in my opinion.
>> THEY are legal for use on the road, others are not. Pretty cut and dry in 
>> my
>> world.
>>
>> I choose to use BIRA, others have chosen to use ECS or Stoptech. Others 
>> use
>> the RS2 brackets.
>> Like you say "Only detailed engineering analysis or test-to-failure can
>> answer that question."
>> And it aint ever gonna be answered. This question has gone on and on 
>> before
>> on this list and the bira site.
>> I think I still remember how that ended.
>>
>> If you want safety, stick with the factory stuff. It works, not great, 
>> but
>> it works and is the only thing that will save you from being denied an
>> insurance claim. Otherwise, use what you want and cover your ass with
>> inspections as should be done with all safety associated parts on an
>> automobile.
>>
>> Just MHO, and no one should read anything into that.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Eric Phillips" <gcmschemist at gmail.com>
>> To: <s-car-list at audifans.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Woah! pics link
>>
>>
>> > Taka:
>> >
>> > Debacle?!?  Reasoned arguments sprinkled with educated speculation are
>> > not the stuff of "debacles".
>> >
>> > You are correct that there have been no *reported* cracking issues
>> > with BIRA brackets.  Lack of reportage does not imply that the design
>> > is adequate.  Only detailed engineering analysis or test-to-failure
>> > can answer that question.
>> >
>> > I'm not sure if you're being provacative or careless in your word
>> > choices.  If you have data to put the questions to rest, I'd love to
>> > see them.  I will gladly eat a huge helping of cold crow if the data
>> > turn out to refute my position in the matter.  My only concern, from
>> > the very beginning, is the safe transport of my fellow UrS car
>> > drivers.  If the BIRA stuff can do that equally as well as the
>> > Porsche/Audi-designed stuff, cool.  If not, then folks looking to
>> > upgrade shouldn't be steered in that direction.
>> >
>> > It's really just that simple, IMO.
>> >
>> > Which is exactly why I chose RS2 brackets and A8L D2 rotors for my
>> > BBK.  Cheap, effective, proven.  ECS?  Avoid.  BIRA?  Unknown,
>> > excessive legalese, slow to get parts, and more expensive.
>> >
>> > From where I sit, it looks like a pretty clear choice.  But as in all
>> > matters of human endeavor...
>> >
>> > Eric
>> >
>> >> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:44:16 -0400
>> >> From: "Taka Mizutani" <t44tqtro at gmail.com>
>> >> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Woah! pics link
>> >>
>> >> I do recall something about the improvements that ECS made to their
>> >> brackets
>> >> after the whole cracking thing came to light several months ago.
>> >>
>> >> I do know that ECS will replace existing brackets at no cost to the
>> >> customer, other than shipping, IIRC.
>> >>
>> >> After the whole ECS debacle, there was another debacle about BIRA and
>> >> debate
>> >> whether or not BIRA's brackets may do the same thing, but I don't 
>> >> think
>> >> any
>> >> cracking reports have occurred with the BIRA brackets.
>> >>
>> >> I thought the ECS brackets placed the caliper in the same orientation 
>> >> as
>> >> the
>> >> RS2 brackets. If that's not the case, then using RS2 brackets would
>> >> necessitate a custom hat or the use of A8L one-piece rotors. At least 
>> >> the
>> >> RS2 brackets are forged steel, so the chance of stress cracking is 
>> >> much
>> >> lower.
>> >>
>> >> Taka
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 7/18/07, Paul Gailus <gailus at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > While I'm not a metallurgist, I have a suspicion that this failure
>> >> > could've been caused by stress corrosion cracking and/or fatigue
>> >> > cracking
>> >> > along the grain of the aluminum alloy. Hot-rolled plate stock will 
>> >> > tend
>> >> > to have some unrecrystallized grain structure in layers that can act 
>> >> > as
>> >> > slip planes in a fracture.
>> >> > For example, see the discussion at:
>> >> > http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article114.htm
>> >> >
>> >> > Being in the "salt belt" probably didn't help either, Bill ;-)
>> >> >
>> >> > Some suggested alternatives in the design would be:
>> >> > 1. use an alloy more resistant to stress corrosion cracking, and
>> >> > include
>> >> > ferrous alloys in the selection process
>> >> > 2. counterbore for a steel nut so that the aluminum bracket doesn't
>> >> > have
>> >> > to be threaded and therefore be more susceptible to 
>> >> > stress/corrosion.
>> >> > 3. the existing counterbores for bolts to the strut housing could
>> >> > have a larger radius applied with a ball mill to minimize stress
>> >> > raisers.
>> >> >
>> >> > Perhaps the redesigned brackets have some improvements in these or
>> >> > other
>> >> > areas.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > S-CAR-List mailing list
>> > S-CAR-List at audifans.com
>> > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/s-car-list
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Eric
>
> 1995 UrS6 "Silber Geist"
> 