[s-cars] Woah! pics link
Eric Phillips
gcmschemist at gmail.com
Wed Jul 18 19:54:18 EDT 2007
I appreciate your "advice", and LOL at the incredible irony of your post.
Don't worry, the subject isn't going away, and neither am I.
On 7/18/07, Taka Mizutani <t44tqtro at gmail.com> wrote:
> Eric-
> You have a big chip on your shoulder about this subject.
>
> You need to CHILL.
>
> If you have a problem with Greg Amy, don't take it out on me. The whole
> ECS/BIRA/RS2 debate that occurred several months ago here, on the BIRA list
> and on Audiworld was a debacle, if you ask me. Lots of name calling, lots of
> assumptions, no clear answers.
>
> YOUR ENGINEERING ISSUES BROUGHT UP THEN AND NOW ARE VALID, SO STOP DEFENDING
> YOURSELF WHEN THERE IS NOTHING TO DEFEND AGAINST.
>
> Technically, none of these brake setups are DOT approved. Audi never offered
> this brake system on a S4 or S6. The closest thing to DOT approved would be
> the Movit kit, which is TUV approved and tested, aluminum brackets and all.
>
> Furthermore, you're running the calipers out of spec by running a 30mm
> rotor. They're designed to use a 32mm thick rotor and 30mm is, IIRC, the
> maximum wear spec on a 993tt rotor (332x32mm designed for use w/ these
> calipers).
>
> Taka
>
>
>
> On 7/18/07, Eric Phillips <gcmschemist at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Mark,
> >
> > Like I said, I don't know if his words are merely careless, or
> > deliberately provocative.
> >
> > And I absolutely disagree with your implied equating of the
> > engineering contained within the various set-ups.
> >
> > The RS2 stuff was designed for legal, road-going cars. The way we
> > apply it is not DOT-approved, that's true. But I'd bet on the
> > engineering staff at Porsche/Audi on any day. I'm guessing most
> > everyone would, given the choices. And the stakes are higher than
> > money, IMO.
> >
> > The fact that Greg decided to nuke me off the BIRA list rather than
> > produce some sort of data as to the engineering speaks large volumes
> > to me. After all, if the questions are uncomfortable, it must be the
> > *questioner* that is the problem, right? I will continue to question,
> > until data is forthcoming.
> >
> > I agree with the inspection aspect, but have always taken it to mean
> > inspection of parts even when they are OEM from the factory.
> >
> > On 7/18/07, Mark Strangways <StrangConst at rogers.com> wrote:
> > > Not to put words into Taka's mouth, but...
> > >
> > > I think you may be reading well into what he was saying.
> > > No where do I hear him saying (or read) that bira brackets are fine.
> > > Mine are... if that interests you !!!
> > >
> > > Perhaps we should all remember that these "upgrades" are NOT for highway
> use
> > > anyways.
> > > Debating whether or not Audi / Porsche are better made or not is rather
> mute
> > > in my opinion.
> > > THEY are legal for use on the road, others are not. Pretty cut and dry
> in my
> > > world.
> > >
> > > I choose to use BIRA, others have chosen to use ECS or Stoptech. Others
> use
> > > the RS2 brackets.
> > > Like you say "Only detailed engineering analysis or test-to-failure can
> > > answer that question."
> > > And it aint ever gonna be answered. This question has gone on and on
> before
> > > on this list and the bira site.
> > > I think I still remember how that ended.
> > >
> > > If you want safety, stick with the factory stuff. It works, not great,
> but
> > > it works and is the only thing that will save you from being denied an
> > > insurance claim. Otherwise, use what you want and cover your ass with
> > > inspections as should be done with all safety associated parts on an
> > > automobile.
> > >
> > > Just MHO, and no one should read anything into that.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Eric Phillips" < gcmschemist at gmail.com>
> > > To: <s-car-list at audifans.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 4:07 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [s-cars] Woah! pics link
> > >
> > >
> > > > Taka:
> > > >
> > > > Debacle?!? Reasoned arguments sprinkled with educated speculation are
> > > > not the stuff of "debacles".
> > > >
> > > > You are correct that there have been no *reported* cracking issues
> > > > with BIRA brackets. Lack of reportage does not imply that the design
> > > > is adequate. Only detailed engineering analysis or test-to-failure
> > > > can answer that question.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure if you're being provacative or careless in your word
> > > > choices. If you have data to put the questions to rest, I'd love to
> > > > see them. I will gladly eat a huge helping of cold crow if the data
> > > > turn out to refute my position in the matter. My only concern, from
> > > > the very beginning, is the safe transport of my fellow UrS car
> > > > drivers. If the BIRA stuff can do that equally as well as the
> > > > Porsche/Audi-designed stuff, cool. If not, then folks looking to
> > > > upgrade shouldn't be steered in that direction.
> > > >
> > > > It's really just that simple, IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Which is exactly why I chose RS2 brackets and A8L D2 rotors for my
> > > > BBK. Cheap, effective, proven. ECS? Avoid. BIRA?
> Unknown,
> > > > excessive legalese, slow to get parts, and more expensive.
> > > >
> > > > From where I sit, it looks like a pretty clear choice. But as in all
> > > > matters of human endeavor...
> > > >
> > > > Eric
> > > >
> > > >> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 10:44:16 -0400
> > > >> From: "Taka Mizutani" < t44tqtro at gmail.com>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Woah! pics link
> > > >>
> > > >> I do recall something about the improvements that ECS made to their
> > > >> brackets
> > > >> after the whole cracking thing came to light several months ago.
> > > >>
> > > >> I do know that ECS will replace existing brackets at no cost to the
> > > >> customer, other than shipping, IIRC.
> > > >>
> > > >> After the whole ECS debacle, there was another debacle about BIRA and
> > > >> debate
> > > >> whether or not BIRA's brackets may do the same thing, but I don't
> think
> > > >> any
> > > >> cracking reports have occurred with the BIRA brackets.
> > > >>
> > > >> I thought the ECS brackets placed the caliper in the same orientation
> as
> > > >> the
> > > >> RS2 brackets. If that's not the case, then using RS2 brackets would
> > > >> necessitate a custom hat or the use of A8L one-piece rotors. At least
> the
> > > >> RS2 brackets are forged steel, so the chance of stress cracking is
> much
> > > >> lower.
> > > >>
> > > >> Taka
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On 7/18/07, Paul Gailus < gailus at mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > While I'm not a metallurgist, I have a suspicion that this failure
> > > >> > could've been caused by stress corrosion cracking and/or fatigue
> > > >> > cracking
> > > >> > along the grain of the aluminum alloy. Hot-rolled plate stock will
> tend
> > > >> > to have some unrecrystallized grain structure in layers that can
> act as
> > > >> > slip planes in a fracture.
> > > >> > For example, see the discussion at:
> > > >> > http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article114.htm
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Being in the "salt belt" probably didn't help either, Bill ;-)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Some suggested alternatives in the design would be:
> > > >> > 1. use an alloy more resistant to stress corrosion cracking, and
> > > >> > include
> > > >> > ferrous alloys in the selection process
> > > >> > 2. counterbore for a steel nut so that the aluminum bracket doesn't
> > > >> > have
> > > >> > to be threaded and therefore be more susceptible to
> stress/corrosion.
> > > >> > 3. the existing counterbores for bolts to the strut housing could
> > > >> > have a larger radius applied with a ball mill to minimize stress
> > > >> > raisers.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Perhaps the redesigned brackets have some improvements in these or
> > > >> > other
> > > >> > areas.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > S-CAR-List mailing list
> > > > S-CAR-List at audifans.com
> > > > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/s-car-list
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Eric
> >
> > 1995 UrS6 "Silber Geist"
> > _______________________________________________
> > S-CAR-List mailing list
> > S-CAR-List at audifans.com
> > http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/s-car-list
> >
>
>
--
Eric
1995 UrS6 "Silber Geist"
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