[s-cars] UrS and 200 ball joint failures

Tue Aug 12 08:40:59 PDT 2008

I don't think the Meyle arms have had any premature (anytime is  
premature in
this case) failures of the hardware itself, it is just the soft  
bushings don't last.  The
excess movement this allows could lead to other failures, I suppose,  
but the front
end will be so sloppy by then that the owner will have to ignore an  
obvious problem.
This type of control arm is on all C4 vehicles and the only issue I  
have seen is it
doesn't maintain the suspension geometry in turns.

Most of the issues posted on the list involve some suspicion of the  
previous work
done on the suspension and steering.  It may be difficult to accept,  
but listen to Fred.
If that joint has been spread the bolt cannot pull it back together.   
If there is the
slightest deformation of this slot where the control arm ball joint  
fitting is clamped
to the strut, it will continue to enlarge the slot and eventually  
overstress the bolt or
work it loose.

So, if you have one of those mysterious front end clunks, maybe you  
should put a
little effort into finding out the cause.  It may be nothing, which  
should put a big
smile on your face.  If it turns out to be something, finding it and  
avoiding some
catastrophe should put a big smile on you face also.  :-D

If you just bought the car, how do you know?  I don't think you can  
rely on a dealer
alignment picking it up if you don't ask for a close inspection.  Too  
many are set
to accept some looseness from wear unless a tie rod, etc has too much  
slop to
retain the settings, and could easily miss a worn ball joint socket.   
I would hope
they would notice if the joint moved, and they should look, but  
sometimes it takes
two people working together to see, and he is concentrating on the  
ball joint and
not the socket it fits in.  If your suspension is covered with  
several years of dirt and
grime from torn boots and j-hose leaks maybe he can't see anything  
anyway.

The typical dealer relationship discussed on the list involves the  
dealer screwing
the owner, so there is probably a built in resistance to any add on  
work there, and
it probably would involve a return visit as well as a lot of cash.   
I'm always under
a lot of stress when the dealer has my car, and I just want to get it  
out of their
clutches as quickly and painlessly as possible.

If you are using your local tire shop to do alignments, you probably  
expect the
new tie rod end pitch-not a big deal.  But, I would be careful of  
allowing anything
else.  The list wisdom has said this for several years-if you don't  
do your own
maintenance (and know what you are doing) you can't afford this car  
without this
list and hopefully some listers hands on help.

Tom

-----Original Messages-----
> Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:36:54 -0400
> From: "Fred Munro" <munrof at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: [s-cars] UrS and 200 ball joint failures
> To: "mike claire" <mike.claire at gmail.com>,	"LL - NY"
> 	<larrycleung at gmail.com>
> Cc: John Lagnese <jlagnese at massed.net>, s-car-list
> 	<s-car-list at audifans.com>,	200 20v List <200q20v at audifans.com>
> Message-ID: <AFECLHABEEILGMHBNDFEAEDGEMAA.munrof at sympatico.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
> Mike;
>
> IMO the biggest potential issue with the UrS ball joint is people  
> reusing
> the pinch bolt (always replace it) and with people wedging  
> something in the
> slot to pry it open to release the ball joint. The latter destroys the
> strut, as it will never properly clamp the ball joint again.  
> Unfortunately,
> you don't know whether that has been done to your car by a
> less-than-competent tech sometime in the past unless you carefully  
> inspect
> the slot for tool marks. I do recall a lister who had a newly- 
> installed ball
> joint pop out and eventually found tool marks in the slot on the  
> strut. If
> the ball joint itself is not loose, I don't think you have to worry  
> about
> failure on either the TRW or the Meyle arms. My experience with the  
> Meyle
> arms is that they wear faster - the ones I installed were shot  
> after one
> year. The local Audi tech told me TRW makes the OEM arms, and  
> that's what I
> used to replace the Meyles. They are still good after 4 years.
>
> Sounds like a bad scene, Mike. Glad to see that you helped out, but  
> that has
> an emotional cost and I hope it passes quickly for you. Not helping  
> out has
> a higher cost, but that's paid in the future over the longer term.
>
> As for Chrysler vehicles, I owned a '66 Dodge van and my wife's  
> first car
> was a '74 Scamp that she drove for 17 years. Both were great  
> vehicles, but
> Chrysler started going downhill in the '80s and the stuff they make  
> now is
> CRAP. Thanks for the heads-up on the Liberty; I haven't been paying  
> much
> attention since I don't plan on owning anything made by Chrysler.
>
>
> HTH
>
> Fred Munro
> '97 S6
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
> [mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of mike claire
> Sent: August 12, 2008 4:07 AM
> To: LL - NY
> Cc: John Lagnese; s-car-list; 200 20v List
> Subject: Re: [s-cars] UrS and 200 ball joint failures
>
>
> Well that's the thing, Larry.  I didn't get too specific this  
> afternoon but
> she died at the scene.
>
> Here's a picture of the
> vehicles<http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/misc?url=/ 
> misc/zoom1.p
> bs&Site=NS&Date=20080811&Category=NEWSBLOG&ArtNo=830886011&Ref=AR>
>
> That's the car's "good" side.  You should have seen the other side.
>
> Whatever happened, she lost control in an instant.  From what I  
> saw, I'm not
> sure a different driver would have had a better result.  Within 2  
> seconds
> she was pointed almost 90 degrees toward the opposite lane's  
> guardrail on
> the overpass, and probably still doing 50.  I believe before she  
> hit the
> guardrail she was t-boned by the car behind me, the Isuzu.  He must  
> have
> been doing 60.  I don't know how much he could have slowed down.
>
> It was a very bad scene, frankly it looked like a movie set that was a
> little overdone.  The Isuzu caught fire and we managed to put it  
> out with an
> extinguisher.  Good thing because they needed the jaws of life to  
> get him
> out later.  That Isuzu didn't collapse, he didn't lose his feet and he
> wasn't pinned in.  But the doors wouldn't open.  He had compound  
> fractures
> in his lower extremities but I wasn't worried about him as long as  
> the car
> wasn't burning - everything becomes relative fast.
>
> As I was tending to the Isuzu guy, another guy yelled to me that  
> the Liberty
> was on fire and we had to get her out now.  I hadn't been over  
> there yet.  I
> got a good look at the situation - moving her was a bad idea, and  
> there was
> no fire.  Just smoke, steam, and the risk of fire.  But no fire yet.
>
> The details are something I'll have to live with.  It was her life,  
> and what
> happened ought to remain private out of respect for her.  I have  
> never said
> that about anything.
>
>
> Audi content:  pinch bolts, crappy control arms, ball joints  
> separating, tie
> rod ends coming apart - this stuff happens to "the general public"  
> when they
> disregard warning signs, and don't maintain what they drive.  It  
> scares the
> crap out of me when I see it happening to listers.  95% of you guys  
> are
> smarter about this stuff than I am.
>
> I just know one thing - my cars are tight and they don't clunk -  
> ever.  They
> pass inspection.  Am I good, or do I need to do more?
>
>
> Man that Jeep Liberty's a beaut.  Google "jeep liberty front end  
> failure"
> and see what you get.  Upper and lower ball joint recalls,  
> catastrophic
> failure and injuries, 3 recalls starting in '02, and a recent one for
> uppers.  Replaced ball joints have come apart after 18K miles.  I  
> have a
> friend who owns one and I'll talk to him tomorrow.  Do you know  
> anybody with
> a Liberty?
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:38 PM, LL - NY <larrycleung at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> I hope the driver of the wreck is okay.
>>
>> On 8/11/08, John Lagnese <jlagnese at massed.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That is a terrible stretch on a terrible road!!
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: 200q20v-bounces at audifans.com [mailto:200q20v- 
>>> bounces at audifans.com]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of mike claire
>>>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 9:24 PM
>>> To: s-car-list; 200 20v List
>>>
>>> Subject: UrS and 200 ball joint failures
>>>
>>> Hey guys - I saw a bad accident today, and it gave me a lot to think
>>> about.
>>> Some of it is Audi related.
>>>
>>> The cops have my statement.  Basically what happened is this:  We  
>>> were
>>> each
>>> going 60 in opposite directions.  If you could freeze the action  
>>> as we
>>> crossed each other, we were at an overpass expansion joint.  At that
>>> millisecond, I heard heavy metallic pop, or a bang come from her  
>>> car.  It
>>> sounded unsprung, and it sounded like something she needed.  I  
>>> glanced at
>>> my
>>> side mirror to catch a glimpse as she passed.  Short wheelbase, high
>>> center
>>> of gravity, I don't think anybody could have saved it, but she  
>>> went down
>>> swinging.
>>>
>>> A little more about the conditions, then the Audi content:  Rt  
>>> 101 on the
>>> Milford/Amherst NH line looks like an Interstate except it's one  
>>> lane
> each
>>> way, no median.  It was 11:30 AM, the road was dry, it was bright  
>>> with
>>> high
>>> cloud cover, and there were only 3 or 4 cars within sight.  She was
>>> driving
>>> a late model car at a normal speed.  Something happened, and in  
>>> the count
>>> of
>>> 2 seconds it was over.  It's as random as it gets.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AUDI CONTENT:
>>> I have seen too many emails about sudden ball joint failures, and  
>>> we've
>>> been
>>> lucky (as far was we know).  It has happened in the driveway,  
>>> rolling
> thru
>>> a
>>> parking lot, etc.  Somebody speculated that gyroscopic action  
>>> holds a
>>> failed
>>> components together until the speed's too low.  I suppose it's
>>> possible....but when I hit an expansion joint at 90 I don't want to
> wonder
>>> if that's what's holding my front-end together.
>>>
>>> Here's my question:  Is a clunk-free UrS/200 control arm/ball joint
>>> definately safe?  There's a concensus that TRW's are good, and  
>>> Meyle is
>>> terrible.  I replaced the arms 2 years and 15K miles ago.  They  
>>> might
> have
>>> been Meyle.
>>>
>>> Suppose they were Meyle, and suppose it passed a "real"  
>>> inspection by an
>>> indy who works on UrS's all the time.  Would you track it with those
> arms?
>>> If the car is heavy enough to snap something without warning  
>>> during an
>>> agressive maneuver, I'll change out parts next week (assuming TRW  
>>> will
>>> correct the risk).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> 200q20v mailing list     http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>> 200q20v

>>>
>
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:38 PM, LL - NY <larrycleung at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> I hope the driver of the wreck is okay.
>>
>> On 8/11/08, John Lagnese <jlagnese at massed.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That is a terrible stretch on a terrible road!!
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: 200q20v-bounces at audifans.com [mailto:200q20v- 
>>> bounces at audifans.com]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of mike claire
>>>
>>> Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 9:24 PM
>>> To: s-car-list; 200 20v List
>>>
>>> Subject: UrS and 200 ball joint failures
>>>
>>> Hey guys - I saw a bad accident today, and it gave me a lot to think
>>> about.
>>> Some of it is Audi related.
>>>
>>> The cops have my statement.  Basically what happened is this:  We  
>>> were
>>> each
>>> going 60 in opposite directions.  If you could freeze the action  
>>> as we
>>> crossed each other, we were at an overpass expansion joint.  At that
>>> millisecond, I heard heavy metallic pop, or a bang come from her  
>>> car.  It
>>> sounded unsprung, and it sounded like something she needed.  I  
>>> glanced at
>>> my
>>> side mirror to catch a glimpse as she passed.  Short wheelbase, high
>>> center
>>> of gravity, I don't think anybody could have saved it, but she  
>>> went down
>>> swinging.
>>>
>>> A little more about the conditions, then the Audi content:  Rt  
>>> 101 on the
>>> Milford/Amherst NH line looks like an Interstate except it's one  
>>> lane
> each
>>> way, no median.  It was 11:30 AM, the road was dry, it was bright  
>>> with
>>> high
>>> cloud cover, and there were only 3 or 4 cars within sight.  She was
>>> driving
>>> a late model car at a normal speed.  Something happened, and in  
>>> the count
>>> of
>>> 2 seconds it was over.  It's as random as it gets.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AUDI CONTENT:
>>> I have seen too many emails about sudden ball joint failures, and  
>>> we've
>>> been
>>> lucky (as far was we know).  It has happened in the driveway,  
>>> rolling
> thru
>>> a
>>> parking lot, etc.  Somebody speculated that gyroscopic action  
>>> holds a
>>> failed
>>> components together until the speed's too low.  I suppose it's
>>> possible....but when I hit an expansion joint at 90 I don't want to
> wonder
>>> if that's what's holding my front-end together.
>>>
>>> Here's my question:  Is a clunk-free UrS/200 control arm/ball joint
>>> definately safe?  There's a concensus that TRW's are good, and  
>>> Meyle is
>>> terrible.  I replaced the arms 2 years and 15K miles ago.  They  
>>> might
> have
>>> been Meyle.
>>>
>>> Suppose they were Meyle, and suppose it passed a "real"  
>>> inspection by an
>>> indy who works on UrS's all the time.  Would you track it with those
> arms?
>>> If the car is heavy enough to snap something without warning  
>>> during an
>>> agressive maneuver, I'll change out parts next week (assuming TRW  
>>> will
>>> correct the risk).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mike
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> 200q20v mailing list     http://www.audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/ 
>>> 200q20v