[s-cars] NAC - Can Anyone Run a VIN for Me?Now Hybrids R Us

[calvinlc at earthlink.net]

Let's not forget the worst of all solutions - ethanol.  Why not starve
everyone to death for a fuel source that is just as polluting as gas but not
even close to being able to sustain more than 10% of the nation's demand for
fuel.  Whenever somebody lumps ethanlo with solar and wind power that's a
sure-fired inidicator they are full of crap and nothing more coming out of
their mouth can be trusted.

I just can't believe this country is so daft that it hasn't been building
nuclear reactors like crazy the last 40 years.  The Europeans seem to have
gotten this one.  Also, has anyone ever done the energy trade on solar
cells.  These guys have a finite lifetime and so they only produce so much
energy over that lifetime.  How much energy does it take to create the solar
cell in the first place?  I am pretty sure it is still a winner, but I have
never seen the numbers.

--Calvin


-----Original Message-----
From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of Fred Munro
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 5:52 AM
To: Joe Pizzimenti; DGraber460 at aol.com
Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] NAC - Can Anyone Run a VIN for Me?Now Hybrids R Us


*sigh* Hybrid discussions are like discussing the relative merits of
someone's mother - full of emotion, passion, and potential fisticuffs.

Looking at the true life cycle costs of hybrids vs. diesel, for me it's a
non-brainer - the diesel wins hands down.

Pollutants emitted? - Prius hybrid at 50 mpg vs. Jetta TDI at 50 mpg; it's a
wash. Plug in the hybrid you say? All you've done is transfer the pollution
from your neighbourhood to the local power plant's neighbourhood. Maybe when
they've shut down the last coal/gas fired power plant and only use
hydro/wind/solar/nuclear that argument may hold water, but the manufacturing
footprint of solar/wind/nuclear power plants is quite large.

Manufacturing environmental footprint? The hybrid has two drive systems with
the complexity and manufacturing footprint that entails. The batteries have
a large environmental footprint both from the manufacturing and recycling
side. The TDI has a single drive system with a manufacturing footprint
roughly equivalent to the Hybrid's chassis and fuel drive system alone. The
TDI wins this one.

Durability? TDI durability is proven - 400,000 miles on the drivetrain is
easily achievable. Hybrid battery life in service tests is exceeding 100,000
miles. The electric drive systems seem robust. Batteries are warranted 8-10
years, so the owner won't be out of pocket within that time. Giving the
hybrid the benefit of the doubt, the cars will probably last 10 years. So,
look ahead at a 10 year old hybrid and TDI. The hybrid needs a battery at
$4000, that's providing they are still available. The technology is way out
of date compared to the new hybrids. Who wants the car? Off to the wrecker
it goes. Who wants a 10 year old TDI? They are selling like hotcakes right
now. TDI wins this one.

I could go on and on, but the tears of boredom would short out keyboards
across the world. The hybrid is still in the early stages of development and
will doubtless improve over time. The time is coming to replace my wife's
Camry and I can tell you it won't be a hybrid. The Passat TDI wagon is
looking very attractive though.

Just my $0.02. Sorry, couldn't resist! :o)

Fred Munro
'97 S6


-----Original Message-----
From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com]On Behalf Of Joe Pizzimenti
Sent: June 28, 2008 12:20 AM
To: DGraber460 at aol.com
Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] NAC - Can Anyone Run a VIN for Me?


Where have you read that the service life is 3 years?  Can you provide a
credible source?
Toyota, Ford & Honda have agreements with Johnson Controls to pull apart &
recycle batteries.

The whole hybrid car battery failure/pollution is a fake straw man.

Even then, in 180000 miles(actual battery life) times 8-15 MPG not consumed
times how many tons per 1000 miles of emitted pollutants not emitted vs. the
battery parts?