[s-cars] Vendoring vs Vectoring

[qshipq at aol.com]

Robin
With all due respect, the mis-q (cue) came from the read that 034 would not warranty a 3 year old turbo.  Having had personal experience with warranty at BW, I'm with DJD on this, oil leaking down the downpipe is not a 'blown turbo', that is a bad bearing/seal.  That is likely  caused by dissimilar metal corrosion/binding (from sitting).  Further, if you sent that turbo for a forensic tear-down, I'd bet that to be what happened.  Just coking oil can cause this, and the bearing tolerances are really tight on the K03 and K04 turbos.  If you really think it's something else, please do let me know what 'you' think caused the failure.  Bad bearing/seal tolerances?  Bent shaft?  Out of balance wheel?  That sounds like a bad 'batch' of k04 from an ISO company, not a single failure.  I'm not aware of any K04 manufacture issues since that turbo was introduced.

BW tests every turbo at the factory, I've seen the machine that does so.  Which means the that the turbo 3 years ago was tested as good by BW, and 3 years later, it 'tested' as bad installed in your car.  I won't go into turbo theory or manufacture with you, but your claim as "bad" turbo with a ISO Production Vehicle Manufacturer, causes one to question the specifics behind what you presented.  You can claim BW had a bad turbo from the factory, but I suggest you might call some turbo suppliers to support that.  Those of us that have had multiple and direct experience with BW/KKK turbos are more likely to look at you, not BW or 034.

Can I likely ever convince you that you are not the 6 sigma exception?  Doesn't sound like it.  But I look at the installer (you) making the basic claim it was NIB, and then documents and treats it as such after the sale on these forums....  That leads me to believe you treated a 3 year old turbo install no differently than a 3 month old turbo install.  

A Porsche master mechanic (IMO) should be the one that should have talked you out of even trying restitution, with 034 or through these lists.  Was he aware you had a 3 year old NIB turbo sitting in a box?  "Oil thru the system before startup how"?  Disconnect the ignition and FP and crank the engine?  If you had a bad bearing/seals from sitting, would putting oil through the system necessarily solve that potential problem?

BTW, I have a BMW SAE paper that speaks to seating new engine builds on first startup by going half throttle for 30 seconds....  But I digress.  You identify and focus on a different 'intent' than one reads into your original posts.  By definition, if that was your *only* intent, the seller of the turbo was irrelevant. PERIOD = apology due Javad and 034.

I think that the lesson learned here should be that a turbo sitting for years, should not be assumed good.  That's the only conclusion you can draw, since there is no evidence that BW produced a bad turbo, and it went to market.  The huge variable to your claim is 36months of time not factored into your conclusion.  And I know turbo bearings and seals can fail from sitting, I've seen it happen in my shop.

Scott J
QSHIPQ
Glenview IL

 


 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Stoddard Robin <rstoddard at shaw.ca>
To: QSHIPQ at aol.com
Cc: Javad at 034motorsport.com; S-CAR list <s-car-list at audifans.com>
Sent: Fri, Jun 18, 2010 12:27 pm
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Vendoring vs Vectoring


Hi Scott,


To clarify a few "things" for you.  


The turbo (with the engine) was installed into the race car three years ago, as a race car build can take a great deal of time with only one person performing the build, it was the whole car that sat for three years and not just the turbo (sitting on a shelf). 


Not sure where you got this from; however, the turbo was not spun up to 120k at startup!?  
In fact, the reason why the car is even working today is that it is being completed by a Porsche master mechanic, who did go through the proper process of getting the oil through the entire engine before startup.  Starting an engine after 3+ years of not running after a complete rebuild with all new parts, then going instantly to WOT would be beyond stupidity!  


My definition of a blown turbo is when there is a great deal of engine oil coming out of the exhaust (passenger side down-pipe) while the engine is at idle is what I would call a blown turbo.


The point in my original posting is that regardless of the part or the supplier, nobody should assume that while the part is new, that the part would be in perfect running condition.  When performing such a large build, there are parts that are bound to be not functioning as they should.  In my case I installed all new parts and it was not only the turbo that I had an issue with; but also the new starter (purchased from Audi) that was defective (not purchased from 034).  Hence the comment in my original posting; "TEST your parts before you install them...".


I am sure that you would also agree that after a great deal of frustration you too would feel compelled to let people know that testing before installing should be a good practice.  Was incorrect in venting my frustrations with 034 publicly? yes.  To answer your opinions of was it:  Unfair? yes.  Unjust? no 


And so, I still stand by my comment that anyone purchasing parts, needs to test the part before installing it onto the car regardless of where it is from.  You will save not only yourself from a great deal of frustration but also the supplier.


This way if you do have a defective part, you can deal with it at that time, rather than waiting 3+ years when you will have no hope of a warranty.  If you had read my following posts to the subject, you would have read that I had also agreed that 3 years is too long to expect any warranty from 034 (or any other supplier for that matter).




To Javad's credit; Javad called me yesterday to discuss this issue and any other issues that I may have had with 034.  After a very reasonable & respectful conversation, I would like to pass on that Javad is working very hard to restore my confidence in him and his company.  I greatly appreciated Javad's personal attention to this matter and I will continue to support 034 with my future business!




Robin








On 2010-06-17, at 11:47 AM, QSHIPQ at aol.com wrote:



I skipped the topic "Life Lesson" until I took the time to read both of Javad's responses.  Both well written by Javad, and frankly, give too much information to those that have no right to it.  Backing up to the original poster and his complaint, a turbo sitting 3 years before install, should be pre-lubed and spun (minimally) before install, and certainly deserves no after-sale service expectation 3 years later.  Borg Warner tests their turbos before they leave the factory, and I'd bet a post-mortum teardown of that claimed 'defective turbo' will reveal this isn't BW or 034 issue/problem, and that turbo was not defective at the time of sale.

This could be a 'life lesson', but to the OP.  Regardless if 034 made 1000 profit on the product, the service expectation is the unreasonable part of the story.  Ironically, at vendor admitted 200 dollar 'profit', that service expectation is no less.  That might be Javad's life lesson, one I learned many years ago.  Price does not equal value.

Second life lesson, be selfish to your own situation.  Spamming a vendor over something this absurd, seems to reinforce the reason good vendors can lose their business over perceived price>value relationships.  IMO, Javad offered more than I would under the same circumstances.  3 years a turbo sits, then one wants to install it and expect to spin it at 120k rpm?  My advice as a turbo-guy, take the offer made to you, and say thank you.  Expecting more means you have an unrealistic expectations of vendors, don't know how a turbo works, and what is good business resolution.

To the fuel of the fire by others...  Wrong forum, see lesson 2.  I've resolved hundreds of 'customer complaints' in my former life as a National Sales Manager, as well as, more recently in the Audi-service arena.  Coilpack complaints?  You have to be kidding, VW and Audi couldn't get them right from the factory, remember who started the problem vs attacking those attempting to address it.

There are many vendors/Audi techs that lurk on these lists, and life lesson 3 might argue, for good reason.  Robin, your post at best is incomplete - I call it just plain unfair and unjust.  One on one with 034, and/or if you insist on sharing, a very detailed post of the circumstances of the install would be a better first step.  A NIB turbo isn't "blown", and you don't even define what that is.  For any 'consideration' of your plight within the 3 month warranty period, Borg Warner requires documentation far beyond "I put it in my car and it 'was blown'"  What changes when a 3rd party vendor sold it to you, and you chose to wait 3 years for the install?  Where's the post or inquiry to 034/BW/s-car list:  "Need advice on installing 3 year old turbo".  That sir, very well might have saved you a lot of self-inflicted wounds.  

I'd advise against wielding axes at by-standers, whatever your intent, it only is fueled by the S-car blood-thirsty crowd buzzing over the carnage.  Me, I see only blood stains finding you, and a concerned Vendor trying hard to defend himself without any real cause to do so. Life lesson experiences are given to our children as part of parenting.  Causing carnage to 034 over frustration, just isn't enough information to pass a life-lesson on to anyone.  

IMO

Scott J




-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Stoddard <rstoddard at shaw.ca>
To: s-car-list at audifans.com <s-car-list at audifans.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 15, 2010 3:34 pm
Subject: [s-cars] Blown turbo & Life lesson #3568921


I bought a pair of new RS4 turbos from a tuner that specializes in  

Audi based mods three years ago for a race car build.  Only to find  

out (now that the car finally runs) that one of the new turbos is  

blown.  The company's response that sold them to me is "sucks to be  

you" because we (or anyone else) will not warrent our parts for that  

long.



So the lesson here is, TEST your f'n parts before you install them  

espescially when dealing with a certain Audi turner/parts company.





















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