[s-cars] Truth vs. Joy

[Stott Hare]

So if we're doing people comparisons, does that make you the new "Brett"?
(It's ok when within quotes right?)

I'm sorry Taka, but you remind me of a new born... So much noise from such a
little package.
-S

-----Original Message-----
From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf Of Taka Mizutani
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 4:56 PM
To: qshipq at aol.com
Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] Truth vs. Joy

No Scott, the cars I've talked about I have either driven a fair bit or
owned, I don't regurgitate magazine summaries.

However, you always fall back on the "you're an asshole, I'm a gentleman"
argument whenever someone chooses to disagree with you.

Since you're going to be like that, I should really just remember not to
comment on your posts and just keep my mouth shut.

I ask you for an objective comparison and/or analysis of AWD systems and
this is what I get, which is partially my fault because I, heaven forbid,
disagree with what you concluded about these various cars.

And to your point, really what comparison have you posted here over the
years? Besides your Steamboat winter driving school recaps, I haven't seen
anything from you except for recent commentary on the new center diff in the
RS5. So you're just as guilty as me of not posting any comparisons. You've
become as bad as Eric Fletcher.

Furthermore, if you're going to give me crap about regurgitating summaries
which is NOT what I've done, why haven't you given anyone any crap about
regurgitating magazine reviews in our recent thread about summer tires?

That's real nice.

Taka


On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 2:48 PM, <qshipq at aol.com> wrote:

>  I sense a lot of reading, and not a lot of direct comparisons Taka, 
> only summaries.  I'm not sure anyone cares what you prefer, without 
> some sort of comparison of them.  I have yet to see a comparison from 
> you in many years on this forum.  I don't call anyone 'stupid' because 
> I feel I have anything to so desparately prove.  And, I have put up 
> fair comparisons of many marques on several forums.  I own Audis, er, 
> a lot of them, *and* can compare them with a lot of other cars I get 
> the honor to drive.  Having that objectivity and joy in sharing that 
> experience over the years, has given me the opportunity to drive many 
> fine machines.  And I enjoy sharing the stories of them, and put in 
> perspective what I read.  It starts with the respect for others 
> choices and their needs vs wants.  I got to be somewhat of a reference 
> to that perspective, because part of my job is brokering cars.
>
> To your points below, without defining "better" neither an STi or an 
> Evo drives "better" many of the BMW or Audi lineup.  You are on a 
> gentleman's forum (all noted JNR exceptions), and "Grand Touring" does 
> not apply to either the Sti or the Evo, and it is what defines BMW and 
> Audi almost all the way thru the line, including the machines on this
forum.  They are 'kid'
> cars, marketed, bought, sold, tweeked and driven mostly by that target 
> market.  The biggest fault of them, is the compromises the driver 
> needs to accept in ownership.  If you don't understand this, your 
> definition of 'better' will never get, er, better?
>
> From your comments below, it's obvious to me that asking you to 
> compare the BMW from experience is lacking.  That's ok, but reverting 
> to mag articles tends to sound more like what I remember reading, not 
> what I remember driving.  With regard to towing, I define that as 
> towing my tandem axle car trailer, and have done so thru the catskills 
> and thru the Rockies.  *You* define towing as something different, 
> which is not the market either the X5 or my LC is after.  EITHER of 
> which, can easily tow a track car to the track, in fine style, and 
> then be quite 'usable' in being part of the driven fleet the other 350days
a year.
>
> You are trying too hard Taka.  I'm happy to be your so-ascribed 
> village idiot, as I share stories and great rides, and choose to write 
> creatively about those experiences on many forums.  Give it a try, and 
> post up a honest comparo, not summary opinion or regurgitated mag 
> summaries.  And, any time you would like to really compare awd, sign 
> up for Steamboat.  Everyone has an opinion, I get lost easily in them.  
> Tell me a story, and contrast and compare rides, that's my personal 
> preference.  But I've been know to be simple.
>
> Cheers
>
> S 'stoopid' J
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Taka Mizutani <t44tqtro at gmail.com>
> To: qshipq at aol.com
> Cc: theringmeister at triad.rr.com; jc at j2c3.com; s-car-list at audifans.com
> Sent: Sat, Mar 20, 2010 9:30 am
> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Truth vs. Joy
>
>  Now Scott, you just made yourself look stupid.
>
> Car and Driver's results? Corvette Z51 3:04, BMW M3 3:06- maybe not 
> "circles," but the BMW loses to a 5-year old car with less horsepower 
> because the Corvette weighs a good 400 lbs. less. The Grand Sport runs 
> circles around the M3- 2:59 is way faster.
>
> I have driven them and compared them myself, thank you.
>
> I'll take any Porsche over the comparable BMW- I've driven them and I 
> prefer the Boxster or Cayman to anything in that range from BMW, same 
> with the Cayenne and same with the 911. The only Porsches I haven't 
> driven are the Panamera and the Carrera GT.
>
> You're killing me- the STi and Evo are "kid cars, single purpose," yet 
> you say that you don't hold any assumptions or preconceptions about 
> the cars beforehand? Both of those cars drive better than the BMW for 
> less money, how is that a bad thing? Or are you then changing the 
> target and saying that the BMW is better because it's more luxurious, 
> feels more solid and doesn't look like a teenager's wet dream?
>
> Just leave it that we don't agree at all.
>
> You're not towing a double car trailer or even an enclosed 28' single 
> car trailer with an X5 or your landcruiser- try going through truck 
> inspection with that one and see what happens- penalties for exceeding 
> max weight are steep. Oh, and try doing it through the Poconos and the 
> Catskills on the way to WGI.
>
> You haven't even addressed the fuel pump and injector issues that the 
> N54 engines have, although to be fair the GTI's engine has the same
issues.
>
> As for driving experience without looking at numbers, a classic 911 or 
> my Miata or a bunch of other cars drive a lot better than any of the 
> current roundup of 1, 3, 5 or whatever series BMW. The STi and the Evo 
> are the closest to that in modern cars- they have tons of feedback, 
> while the current Audi and BMW models filter everything heavily.
>
> And the A5/S5 pair look far better than anything BMW has put out in 
> the current lineup. Same thing with the B7 and B8 A4/S4 and as well 
> with the D3 and D4 A8/S8.
>
> Taka
>
>
>
>
>
>  On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 6:43 PM, <qshipq at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>  Taka
>> I've said it many times before, you need to *drive* cars, and 
>> objective compare them yourself.  C&D did the 'Lightning Lap' article 
>> just last month.  The corvette won't run circles around the M3... Or, 
>> based strictly on the times in class using your argument, the M3 will 
>> 'run circles' around the S4.  Good reads, but I enjoy comparing rides 
>> and drives of many cars, and learned long ago, that's not any offense to
what's in my driveway.
>> Apples to Apples: The RS4 feels heavy, and front heavy driven hard.  
>> The M3 feels heavy, and *solid* driven hard.  The 'quattro' advantage 
>> wanes quickly.  Again, it's how you wear your weight.
>>
>> Me, I prefer my landcruiser with TRD supercharger for towing, but the 
>> x5 sport will tow a the boat to the lake in good style, with form, 
>> and good brakes.  STi and Evo?  Kid cars, one purpose, and that 
>> singular purpose eclipses so many basics, they become chores.  I 
>> enjoy a good romp with the Evo, but even Pizzo sold his monsta.  The 
>> best part of that romp?  Knowing I had fun, AND I can give the keys 
>> back.  Best ride to set your eyes on fire when wearing your hat 
>> backwards?  Take a romp in a 135i with the Dinan chip package and
warrantee.
>>
>> The BMW v Audi is about the evolution of Grand Touring Automobiles.
>> Specifically, how to get the least compromises from a performance
machine.
>> To that end, the battle is full swing, and I claim De Lorenzo is 
>> still 180 out of whack.  I enjoy good car comparos with those that 
>> can compare them objectively with btdt.  Class to class, BMW hits the 
>> marque very hard, in objective and subjective comparos, IMO.  I 
>> thoroughly enjoyed my ride in a Camaro SS too, but the comparison to 
>> the BMW/Audis can only be a track time.  Which then brings back my 
>> point, the evolution of the Grand Touring Automobile has come a long 
>> way.  And part of that battle of the rings vs roundel, is how BMW 
>> chips away constantly at the 'quattro' advantage.  50/50 weight 
>> distribution goes a long way towards that end.  Add in identical awd
systems, Audi is at the disadvantage now.
>>
>> And I'm quite happy that I own more than one of the classic GT's in 
>> my collection of urq's.  To me, like driving the 911S, it's always a 
>> plus when the enjoyment of the ride, stands the test of time.
>>
>> SJ
>>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: Taka Mizutani <t44tqtro at gmail.com>
>> To: qshipq at aol.com
>>  Cc: theringmeister at triad.rr.com; jc at j2c3.com; 
>> s-car-list at audifans.com
>> Sent: Fri, Mar 19, 2010 5:01 pm
>> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Truth vs. Joy
>>
>>   I would rather buy a Porsche than a performance BMW model. If we 
>> stick to awd models, I still prefer the Audi quattro system over any 
>> other system I've driven.  My Corvette will run circles around the 
>> BMW's you mentioned and a gt-3 will do even better.
>> As a performance luxury car, IMO the fugly cayenne does better and 
>> the Audi's are much nicer to sit in, dealer experience notwithstanding.
>> I have other cars, so I don't need one car to do it all. I still 
>> think an
>> s5 or s4 is a much nicer daily driver than a comparable BMW.
>> I'd also choose a diesel pickup or a suburban as a tow vehicle unless 
>> youre towing bikes or something light.
>> If you're going to excuse the ugliness of current BMW's then an sti 
>> or evolution is a much better performance car.
>> I guess we can agree to disagree, because I don't see any BMW other 
>> than the x5m or the 535xi touring manual that I would ever buy.
>>
>
>
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