[s-cars] AUDIophile! Stereo Options?

[Vincent]

Hi Ben,

Starting with a head unit you can use as a source/preamp with the RCA
outputs is a very good start (for audio quality, it doesn't change anything
for ease of use). What I found in car audio, and in pre-packaged home audio
too, is that speakers, then poweramps, are the weakest link. In most cases,
except for the cheapest systems, source and preamp are decent, not
necessarily good, but decent is good enough for a car.

For the amps, the best option I found (or should I say only one, when it
comes to price for value) is home audio Class-T amps. The low power models
run on 12V so they are compatible with a car. Also, in kit form (assembled
but no enclosure, they are really cheap, like 30$ for a stereo amp) and they
beat 1K$ amps on pure quality (but with much lower power output than a
typical 1K$ amp). Now, low power doesn't means low decibels, depending how
you choose speakers and how you use that power (In fact, in one of my
system, feeding 10W to the speakers would make my ears bleed, and probably
my neighbours too), I normally use 0.2W to 0.5W.

For speakers, efficient (>90db) home audio full-band speakers are the best
match for a 12V Class-T amp. Fostek is the most recognized in that class of
speakers but Tang Band makes very nice units too, for quite less money (but
they also make quite bad ones so you have to know what to choose) The combo
will produce very nice medium and trebles. No deep bass from these speakers
but you can't expect deep bass from a low power amp. Considering you won't
listen to the speakers in axis, you may want to add a tweeter or a super
tweeter, cut at or above 10kHz with a simple condo, because full band
speaker loose a good amount of trebles when listened to off-axis.

For the sub, you have to go with a car amp because you need power for deep
bass. And only a  car amp gives enough power from 12V. OTOH, the ear is not
very sensitive to the quality of deep bass, just how deep and powerful it is
(some audiophile disagree but, in fact, it's the quality of medium or medium
bass that makes deep bass sounds good). So you don't need a high quality car
amp for the bass. As for the sub speaker, I would rather go with a home
audio speaker, simply because you will get less bling but more bang for the
buck. Dayton Audio makes decent ones for a reasonable price and they are
really good at giving deep bass with a size compatible with a car.

Now, there is too drawbacks to this approach, and serious ones:
- First, car audio speakers are designed to withstand the high temperature
of a car left under the sun in a bright summer day. Home audio speakers are
not. So if your climate is hot, and you tend to leave your car under the
bright sun for long periods, the durability of the speakers may seriously
suffer.
- Second, there is more involved in fitting amps and speakers that were not
design for a car, in a car. But if you're not afraid by routing wires and
drilling new holes that match the speakers holes, it's not that complicated.

Last, but not least, for less than 1K$, you can build a system that will
definitely tell you the difference between 320Kbps mp3s and a CD... when the
3" exhaust is at rest, that is.



Vincent

-----Original Message-----
From: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com
[mailto:s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf Of Ben Swann
Sent: 4 November 2010 20:24
To: 'Taka Mizutani'
Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] AUDIophile! Stereo Options?

I just hope I'm not wasting money on the unit I'm getting for around $2C and
change -
new is over $400.  What else is there that one does not spend ungodly amount
of $ on.
I'm wondering if I might not do well to use one of my older head units.  I
have a
Clarion system - pretty much new in box that had a complex sound mixer, but
is pretty
much a PITA to setup.  I have an old Alpine that made great sound - old
'90's vintage.
A whold box full JVC, Kenwood, Sony and the like, along with a bunch of OEM
Bluapunkt
and Wiesbaden units.  
 
I generally like  the units that have unproprietary interfaces - RCA inputs
and six RCA
output (front, rear and two sub/other).  One can alway deal with anoalog I/O
and the
proprietary digital or DIN never seem to be compatable with other equipment,
often even
within the same manufacturer - talk about planned obselescence.
Unfortunately the
general public does not know the difference, especially since things have
gone to the
various media players.
 
I know what used to give me good sound in auto as well as home and the newer
stuff makes
it more difficult to build a good system without spending way to much.  I
really car
more about being able to hear full sound while traveling at full clip than
knowing what
track is playing and who the author is.  Again I digress and hope even with
the downside
of the unit I'm getting, it will be some progress.  I can always splurge for
the top of
the line head unit later - as long as the wiring is consistant and they
don't take away
my analog I/O.
 
Ben
 
p.s. will check into the Pioneer -99RS just to see what you are talking
about.

  _____  

From: Taka Mizutani [mailto:t44tqtro at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:40 PM
To: Ben Swann
Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [s-cars] AUDIophile! Stereo Options?


Actually Ben, yes, all of the recent head units with the exception of that
Pioneer -99RS
that I mentioned have taken steps backward in quality and sound
reproduction.

It's a shame, because now you need to spend $1200 on an insane head unit or
settle for a
crappy unit with a lot of gadgets built in.

Hi-fi has been in decline ever since MP3s have become the dominant music
format.
Supposedly, if you convert to Apple lossless format and then use a good
outboard DAC,
iPods can still sound good, if you're storing stuff that was originally on
CD.

Heck, it's impossible to get a good CD player or a record player these days-
the
cheapest decent transports are around $800 and you still need a DAC for it
because most
of the DVD or Bluray players' onboard DACs suck.

Taka



On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Ben Swann <benswann at verizon.net> wrote:


I guess too late since I already sent the $ I did have the reservations, but
specs-wise seems nice, especially for the cost. I don't like the fiddly
knobs and busy
panels on most units these days, but seems to be all that is out there. I
was willing
to compromise somewhere if the price was good, and so I went for it - a
nearly new unit
for half the new price. It is an ALPINE after all, and although I haven't
had one in
awhile, I recall the ones I had to be among the best.

The good thing about it is that I can swap it out easily since the connects
are pretty
much non-proprietary. So not to sound too out of date, I'll do a search on
RDS - one of
those things I don't need now since I don't know much about it, but will
when I find
out. Really basic FM is OK with me.

CDs and FM - what more does one need as long as the system represents true
high
fidelity? I certainly hope they have not gone backwards in sound
reproduction circuitry
and amplification.

FWIW - I do tend to be a bit behind the times on this stuff for various
reasons, mainly
financial. I have/have had a lot of cars and do a lot of stereo installs
using what is
available for low budget. I'll get a car, fix it up and make things work
including
sound. Most folks aren't goning to pay for a premium sound system. I'll take
the nice
units I find an stick them in my car. The systems are often dated, many are
simply
cannibalized from a car I'm parting out. Often these were mid-high end for
the day and
generally put out a great sound for what the system costs.

This time I'm going to spend a bit more, but even with mostly slightly used
stuff, I'll
probably have between $500 and $1k in the sound system. I'm doing that only
because of
the time and money already invested in the car - one that I plan to keep
forever.

I'll get some pictures of it out on Motorgeek later.

Ben


-----Original Message-----
From: JC [mailto:jc at j2c3.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:12 PM
To: 'Ben Swann'; 'Eric Sanborn'
Cc: s-car-list at audifans.com; quattro at audifans.com; 200q20v at audifans.com
Subject: RE: [s-cars] AUDIophile! Stereo Options?

Ben -

I have a 988x (forget the exact model at this moment) in the Battlewagen...
To be honest its made me ditch my long time loyalty to Alpine.

Works OK. But audio quality is not remarkable and other usability issues
have been a big
disappointment.

Various criticisms, some of which are issues that Alpine has been declining
on for some
time:

- Features are low for the money you're paying, ex: no RDS on mine without
buying the HD
Radio add-in. Ridiculous not to have RDS, and I'm 99% sure the feature
exists on the FM
tuner chips inside but they've just not turned it on. They seem to be living
10 years
behind the curve "ooohhh RDS? well that's a fancy extra feature! high
technology!" No,
Alpine, no it's not. A base Kia sh!tbox has RDS on the crappy OEM radio.
- Leading right off that the add-on units are ridiculously expensive IMO (ie
BT or
SatRadio or HD or Imprint EQ). If those were reasonable it might be OK
answer to the
previous issue but they are not. but even then those boxes are big and more
stuff to jam
behind your console, which is a PITA when things like BT and RDS and even HD
Radio
should just be build into the damn thing for $400 or more.
- iPod integration is OK but not brilliant. still old firewire-style
charging on the
cables for instance, and not iPhone compatible so you always get that stupid
error
to"dismiss". I would have thought they'd have sorted that by now but the
website still
amazingly doesn't say "iPhone compatible"
for those units so I guess not. looks like the iDA unit is iPhone compatible
finally but
that thing has no radio presets or other analog buttons that are still nice
to have so
you're in BMW iDrive mode aka always dicking around with menus to do the
most simple
stuff.
- Alpine interfaces have gotten more and more arcane IMO. Its often very
obtuse and
non-intuitive how to do things. This is even true of the last couple Alpines
I bought
(ex: always some unlabeled weird method to re-set the time vs. being easy
and obvious
and menu driven) More specifically: one thing you'll find in almost all
on-line reviews
of these 988x units is the complaint that the volume knob acts as a scroll
for menus
(Good!) but stupidly, despite the fact that it is also a push-button, you
don't push it
to select things (STUPID!), you have to hunt to one of the little buttons on
the side to
select. completely anti-intuitive.
- Lastly the device is able to be firmware upgraded by USB but despite the
fact that
they list that as a "feature", if you press the question Alpine will
basically admit
they will never be releasing firmware updates to owners and basically the
day the new
model goes live they stop development.

Bottom line I'd never buy this unit again, and I'm wishing I went with the
Eclipse I
looked at at the same time...

HTH...

JC
>
> I have to admit, there is a lot of bang for the buck in that unit.
>
> I'm just about to get this one slightly used for half the new price:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/cda-9887/
>
> Wondering if that is a mistake since I can get this new for less.
>
> Ben ] 

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