[urq] More of the car that wouldn't start

Tue Nov 2 18:22:13 EST 2004

Okay, that's great info to have.  I have a friend who's a mechanic who
might help me out by loaning me the stuff I need to do it.  I have a
crappy DMM (like $25 from CarQuest) with no DC or even dwell on it.

I should note that the car won't even idle in warm-up mode.  I'm not
sure I've even gotten it out of warm-up mode so far.  It will die
pretty much immediately if I let off the throttle or even let it below
1k (It used to idle at about 600 rpm until it warmed up, so I probably
have another issue there, but my mechanic friend thought this was
probably my CO mix.

Also, I put a new O2 sensor in it, I'm not sure how long the old one
had been in there.

On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 14:24:16 -0700, Brandon Rogers <brogers at terrix.com> wrote:
> Don't take the car to the mechanic - you can do this - If I can you can -
> it's harder to explain than to actually do - but I'll give it a try - and
> feel free to post to the List  - maybe somebody has a write-up posted on a
> personal website
> 
> OK- if you don't already have a DMM go buy one (or borrow)- they are less
> than $100 - money very well spent.  As I said , make sure it has Duty Cycle.
> A must.  Try Sears first.  Make sure the hole between the FD and igloo is
> unplugged - if not - unplug it - no big deal.  Now - there is a 2-prong plug
> by the pass. side shock tower - plug your DMM in here- not sure which color
> goes where - you may need to switch.  Turn the car on - it should be fixed
> at like 49.5 for several minutes while the car is in warm-up mode.  Let it
> get warm - ie wait til fan comes on.  By now the car has likely started to
> stumble - the DMM is reading really high or really low maybe - you want it
> to be fluctuating between say 40.0 and 50.0.  You'll need to make minor -
> say 1/8 turn (or less) adjustments to the DC with your 3mm T-handle (go buy
> one)- one direction (can't remember which anymore) will increase the number
> the other will decrease it.  It is pretty sensitive.  So make a small
> adjustment, pull out the T-handle, rev the motor a few times and let it
> settle back in - repeat.  Make sure you remove the T-handle before revving!
> Once you get it pretty nailed down go for a drive - re-check when you get
> back.  Check it after each of your first few drives.  As local man who is
> HIGHLY regarded once said to some of us- it takes a week to properly tune
> one of these.
> 
> If, when you go for a drive - the car has great low end torque but really
> does not want to rev past about 5000 rpm- you are a tooth off.  This
> happened to me when I could have sworn I was dead on.  Drove it like that
> (torture!) for two weeks I think before I realized the problem.....
> 
> 
> 
> hth
> 
> Brandon
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> To: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> 
> > Heh, it sounds like the simple solution is to take it to a mechanic.
> >
> > I'm not _sure_, as you say, that there are no vacuum leaks.  I have
> > planned on replacing all of the vacuum hoses and hose clamps under the
> > hood, but I have to order the hoses from Blau or somewhere, the stuff
> > from the stealership is like $.20/inch.  Also, it's a big job, and I
> > was hoping that since the car ran fine before (save a loud but mostly
> > annoying EM crack) it would run fine again.  Now, I'm sure you're
> > laughing and falling out of your chair right now, but I did know that
> > that was a pretty optimistic assumption when I started this,
> > especially given the number of things that have changed:
> >
> >   Head was refreshed and tappets shimmed to spec
> >   Cleaned all of the gunk off of the air plate under the igloo
> >   Cleaned all of the gunk out of my TB, including the small hole that
> > the CO mix screw goes into.
> >   Replaced some vacuum lines
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:21:59 -0700, Brandon Rogers <brogers at terrix.com>
> wrote:
> > > Well it's hard to say....Are you _sure_ you don't have any vacuum leaks?
> If
> > > you can pressure test it - that is, IMO, the best diagnostic tool for
> the WX
> > > motors- there are so many lines and so often there is a leak that causes
> > > most of the problems.  So - once you now you don't have leaks you can go
> > > from there.  The DC, or mixture, is adjusted by means of a 3mm allen and
> the
> > > hole is located in between the igloo and fuel distributor.  It is
> plugged
> > > from the factory but most have been opened by now.  If yours is plugged
> > > still, you'll need to undo the clamps (as if repalcing the air filter)
> to
> > > get under there.  Do you know how to adjuct DC?  You'll need a DMM
> (Digital
> > > multi meter) with Duty Cycle capability- not all have this.  Let me know
> if
> > > you need more guidance....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Brandon
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> > > To: "Brandon Rogers" <brogers at terrix.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 11:07 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> > >
> > > > Okay, I have no idea where to adjust the duty cycle.  Is that the same
> > > > as the CO mix screw on the top of the TB?  It's very possible that I'm
> > > > dealing with something similar.  When I dis-assembled this thing in
> > > > the first place, I found that the idle switch on the TB wasn't ever
> > > > getting closed.  The switch had come out of adjustment so it was never
> > > > "on".  I don't know what effect that would have on the car, but I
> > > > fixed it, so there's that.  Also, I've replaced a couple of vacuum
> > > > hoses (and intend on replacing them all, including the ECU hose all
> > > > the way back through the firewall.)
> > > >
> > > > Would the car run rough and act like it had a timing problem in that
> > > > case though?  LIke I said, not only will it not idle, but it the
> > > > engine accelerates rather roughly.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:05:47 -0700, Brandon Rogers <brogers at terrix.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > My first thought would be to pressurize the intake to make sure you
> have
> > > no
> > > > > vacuum leaks.  If the car is sealed - then next check your duty
> cycle.
> > > You
> > > > > may have had a leak before that is now gone- hence throwing your DC
> way
> > > off.
> > > > > I once fixed a "minor" leak that threw my DC off so much the car
> would
> > > die
> > > > > immediately once off the gas - wouldn't even idle.  I had to blindly
> > > give
> > > > > the 3mm a turn  - luckily I went in the right direction and the car
> was
> > > able
> > > > > to idle while I walked from the driver seat to the front so I could
> > > properly
> > > > > adjust it...
> > > > >
> > > > > hth
> > > > >
> > > > > Brandon
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
> > > > > To: <urq at audifans.com>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 8:15 AM
> > > > > Subject: [urq] More of the car that wouldn't start
> > > > >
> > > > > > It will start now, as it would yesterday.  I checked the timing
> (that
> > > > > > is, the position of the cam versus the crank) and I was indeed off
> a
> > > > > > tooth, although when I restarted the car it ran even more roughly
> than
> > > > > > before.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We've tried adjusting the distributor, the range in which it will
> > > > > > actually fire the coil is small, and it doesn't seem to matter
> where
> > > > > > we position it, the car will die if I don't use the throttle to
> keep
> > > > > > it at about 1k rpm.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also checked all of my vacuum routing and such (thanks for the
> ETKA
> > > > > > slides and the routing diagram Louis-Alain).  There were two
> things
> > > > > > that I had not connected, the first being the small hose that goes
> to
> > > > > > the outside/underside of the igloo towards the front, and the ECU.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The ECU hose deserves its own discussion.  The digrams I have
> clearly
> > > > > > indicate that it go on the left-rear port (from the front of the
> car
> > > > > > looking back) of that group of four small ports that come off the
> back
> > > > > > of the IM.  The left rear port is slightly larger than the other
> three
> > > > > > though, which would indicate to me that a larger hose needs to be
> > > > > > attached to it.  My ECU hose is so brittle that I had to cut it
> back
> > > > > > and put one fo those inline hose splices in it.  I was wondering
> if
> > > > > > anyone else had noticed this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, the car will start after a crank or two (right away pretty
> much)
> > > > > > but will not idle at all, will run pretty roughly at 1k rpm and
> though
> > > > > > the engine will rev when I give it more gas, it's still pretty
> rough
> > > > > > (not like it used to be).  It seems like a timing issue, but I'm
> > > > > > running out of places to be wrong on that.  I'm pretty sure the
> coil
> > > > > > wouldn't even fire if I had the distributor in wrong (wrong
> relation
> > > > > > to cam) and like I said above, it doesn't seem to matter where we
> > > > > > position the distributor body versus the dizzy itself, the car
> still
> > > > > > doesn't run well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again to everyone who's had suggestions for me, I really
> > > appreciate
> > > > > it.
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>