[urq] Bad starter?

Fri Feb 3 14:11:13 PST 2012

Since I don't have a garage and it had been pretty wintry here in Seattle
up until a couple of days ago, my car had just been sitting.

Today, it's warm enough out to work without gloves, so I tried to jump back
into this, and learned a few things in the process (though the car still
doesn't start).

The first is that if you can learn how to read the wiring diagram that is
supposedly for the '84 quattro in the back of the Bentley, it seems to
match pretty closely with how the '83 cars are wired.  I had a couple of
the small pin connectors that had backed out of the big rectangular A-F
connectors that go into the back of the fusebox.  Combing the wiring
diagram on the Bentley and educated guesses based on where the wires were
in the harness led to being able to tweak the retention pins and get the
connectors to stay in the housing again.  Where the Bentley really falls
down is all of the fuses and relays that are not part of the fusebox, it
doesn't do much for you there.

I've got 12.3 volts coming out of the ignition switch when it's in the
start position.  This leaves the switch via a big (12G maybe?) red wire
with a black stripe.  It goes into the fusebox at E17 (per the Bentley) and
comes back out on A10.  I pulled the A connector housing off the back and
measured the voltage on the actual A10 pin, and I get 12.3V there as well.
So it seems likely that my issue is between the pin at A10 in the fusebox
and the 50 terminal on the starter.

Which is probably worse than simply having a dead battery, starter motor or
ignition switch.  Tracing and replacing that wire as it runs into the
engine bay, through the frame rail and out to the starter motor is probably
going to redefine the term "suck" for me.

I do have a couple of questions the list might be able to help with.
First, does anybody have any idea what part number I could use for a
removal tool for the larger round pins (like A10 and E17) on the back of
the fusebox?  I've already got the smaller pin removal tool from Digikey
(which I didn't end up needing).

My thought is that I'll get a length of good wire of the same gauge, a
matching AMP female pin, and then just run it through an open driver's side
door, through the engine bay and to the starter to see if that will engage
the solenoid.  If it works, it's up to me to figure out the best way to
replace the existing wire and run a replacement properly.

It seems that a couple of you guys think this is a circuit worth relaying,
which I'm pretty game to do.  I'd just need to find a decent
water-resistant relay housing.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or info you guys can throw my way.

Thatcher

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Peter <audionly at gmail.com> wrote:

> The positive cable goes from the starter to the alternator and then to the
> battery.  There was a car in Eagle last year where the two cables coming
> together at the alternator were corroded from the mag cloride. Cleaned up
> and the car started immediately. /pc
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:33 PM, Thatcher Hubbard <
> thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't think so, and I really can't see how it could have.  My oil looks
>> clean, and so does my coolant, the car hasn't been overheated, and really,
>> it's only got like 5k on it since I did a full top end as part of my EFI
>> swap.
>>
>> I finally crawled under the car and put a multimeter on a couple of bolts
>> while my wife cycled the ignition.  Per the Haynes manual, I started with
>> the '50' terminal on the starter solenoid.  I only got about 2.8V on that,
>> and about the same on the field winding terminal.  This suggests maybe the
>> ignition switch?  I guess I need to see what sort of voltage I'm getting
>> directly from the battery as well.  I need to drop the turbo oil cooler so
>> I can get at it a little easier.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 8:41 AM, <laraa at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > The engine is not seized, isn't it ?
>> >
>> > Louis-Alain
>> >
>> > -----Message d'origine-----
>> > De : urq-bounces at audifans.com [mailto:urq-bounces at audifans.com] De la
>> > part de Thatcher Hubbard
>> > Envoyé : 7 novembre 2011 11:36
>> > À : Urq List
>> > Objet : Re: [urq] Bad starter?
>> >
>> > Well, it's not the starter or the battery, both of which have now been
>> > replaced.  Man, getting a starter out of this car is a crappy job.
>> >
>> > I'm out of ideas.  I hear a very definite click under the hood, which I
>> > presume to be the starter solenoid.  I guess I'll have to crawl under
>> there
>> > with a multi-meter and have my wife cycle the ignition.  Clearly, I
>> should
>> > have done this first.
>> >
>> > I don't really mind having the old starter out though.  The thing was
>> > falling apart.
>> >
>> > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 12:10 AM, audiqtrocp <audiqtrocp at aol.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I have a brand new $180 starter sitting on my shelf because I denied
>> the
>> > > fact that 'it could have been a bad battery already'.
>> > >
>> > > In Seattle you guys dont have the extremes in weather that we do in
>> Vegas
>> > > but assume the battery until you prove it's not.
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my iPhone for, the one with the bigger Gee Bee's
>> > >
>> > > On Oct 26, 2011, at 12:28, "Patrick Carlier" <p.carlier at pandora.be>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Most likely the brushes in the starter are worn and or stuck .
>> > > > Symptomes are you can hear the starter relais click but
>> > > > the motor doesn't engage .
>> > > >
>> > > > Sometimes "gently"  tapping the starter with a hammer will revive
>> it .
>> > > > Only  for a very limited period of time , but when you're stuck in
>> the
>> > > > middle of nowhere it's worth trying . Take the gently with a grain
>> of
>> > > salt .
>> > > > Sometimes you'll have to hit it pretty hard .
>> > > >
>> > > > The real fix is to take it apart and replace the brushes .
>> > > > And if possible give the rotor a pass on the lathe  to clean up
>> > > > the collector . It's an easy thing to do , and a brushes kit will
>> > > > cost about 40€ ( 60usd approx )
>> > > >
>> > > > Good luck
>> > > > Pat
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thatcher Hubbard" <
>> > > thatcher.hubbard at gmail.com>
>> > > > To: "Urq List" <urq at audifans.com>
>> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 6:01 PM
>> > > > Subject: [urq] Bad starter?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >> It got down into the 30's for the first time here in Seattle last
>> > night.
>> > > >> This morning, I get nothing but clicking when I try to start the
>> > > quattro.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> The alternator was done last year, and was showing an excellent
>> 14.3V
>> > > >> between terminals after the replacement.  I have not pulled the
>> back
>> > > seat up
>> > > >> yet to make sure the battery is truly good, but all the lights are
>> > > strong.
>> > > >> I will pull the seat and do a battery check before I do anything,
>> but
>> > it
>> > > >> seems like this might be the starter?
>> > > >>
>> > > >> I get a click from under the dash (ignition relay?) and a louder
>> click
>> > > from
>> > > >> under the hood.  I'm quite sure the starter in the car is the
>> > original,
>> > > so
>> > > >> if it is dead, it made it almost 30 years, not a bad run.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Just wanted a second opinion and some BTDT from the list before I
>> go
>> > > >> ordering a new starter motor.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> As always, thanks,
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Thatcher Hubbard
>> > > >> Seattle, WA
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