[urq] High beam indicator stuck on, high beam stalk has no effect- what did I break?

[djdawson2 at aol.com]

Not saying the stalk isn't the issue, but I've seen this happen where it is, in fact, NOT the issue.  Remember, wen you've relayed your lights, your stalk is subjected to minimal duress, and rarely would fail after you install relays.

Most recently, I installed and relayed euro "dual" H1's on my 930.  Due to ease of installation issues, I elected to go with 2 relays per headlight (1 high/1 low).  I run 100 watt bulbs on the lows, and 130 watt on the highs.

Needless to say, the 930 is a car I use only in the summer.  After sitting through a winter, when I first use it after sitting for months, it behaves almost exactly as you've described.  I flip the high beams on, and then they will not go off... the indicator in the dash stays on as well.  If I cycle them multiple times, the high beams will begin to shut off after a few seconds, then quicker, and finally it reacts as soon as I trigger the stalk.

Why, I wondered.  I did measure some small residual voltage (2 volts) between the 85 and 86 pins on the relay.  These 2 pins power the coil that closes the relay.  I wondered if 2 volts was enough to keep the circuit (coil) closed.  I did some reading, and found (as expected) that it is essentially irrelevant which pin (85 or 86) is powered, and which is ground... as the coil doesn't really "care" about polarity.  However, I did read that relays often use a tamping diode between the pins on the relay, 85 and 86 in the case of Bosch.  This is effectively a one way switch, with high resistance in one direction of current, low in the other.  This is where polarity would make a significant difference.

Long story short, your relays will work if you apply signal (hot) to pin 86 and ground to pin 85, or the reverse.  But if there actually is such a tamper diode in place, polarity will matter, in which case you should insure that pin 86 is your ground, and pin 85 is your hot "signal" power that activates the relay.

If polarity is reversed (pin 86 hot signal, 85 to ground), the tendency for the relay to remain closed does exist.  I would make sure that you have 86 as your ground, and 85 as your "signal" hot.

Dave

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Justusson <qshipq at aol.com>
To: spotatashleys <spotatashleys at hotmail.com>; s.b.mills <s.b.mills at gmail.com>; urq <urq at audifans.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 25, 2012 6:16 pm
Subject: Re: [urq] High beam indicator stuck on, high beam stalk has no effect- what did I break?


Having the car in question in my possession, I can say that it's the stalk 
switch that's bad.  As a rule, a properly installed bosch 4 pin relay will last 
in excess of 100k cycles, because that's the design spec of most Bosch (now 
tyco) oem 4/5 pin relays.  I have seen them fail from excess load, water, 
corrosion, but not from a 'failure' of the relay mechanism or non 
circuit-overload points welding.  I have done close to 100 eurolight conversions 
in the last 30 years of motorsport/shop installs, many 20 year old relay 
circuits are working just fine today.  Plenty of 30 year old urq's running 
original stock relays, btst....

As a former rally driver, I used to run 1 relay per light, then changed to 1 
relay per light pair (1 relay low beams, 1 relay high beams).  1 relay per light 
pair is more than ample, and mucho better than no light relays and undersized 
wire Audi used from the factory.  On the H4/H1(H3) running all 4 highs at 100w, 
you should use a 40 amp 4 pin relay, or again use 1 relay for H4 Highs and 1 
relay for H1(H3).  I did this mod on my 5ktq euros, which requires a snip of the 
jumper wire between the inner>outer High beams.  The advantage to doing so, is 
you can run 55/65 H4 and a switched100w H1(H3), which gives 3 progressive light 
intensities...  110w lows, 130w highs, and 430w Highs.  IME, 4 100w high bulbs 
can really be a problem in high moisture conditions.   

The urq uses one of the goofiest lighting circuit that follows a couple fused 
circuits, including the load reduction relay and the infamous 'x' circuit.  In 
the 5k/200 the jump stop fails and it defaults to the 'away' setting (high 
beam), which requires a pull to keep low beam.  In the 4k and urq, the pull-on 
pull-off feature fails (as in Mr. Mills urq), which also defaults to the high 
beam setting.  Both can be 'repaired', but a new one (or known good) with 
relayed headlights will last longer than you will own the car.

Susquehanna Motorsports btw, sells the Hella (HL87204) integral 30 fuse, which I 
really like for headlight installs.  The only logic issue with them, is due to 
the mounting of the fuse, the 30/87pins are not a standard 4pin wire layout 
location, though they do fit in a standard 4 pin socket.  I recently installed 5 
of these relays in the Pikes Peak Urq of Hackl's, and they are especially 
awesome if installed in the cockpit vs under the hood.

Cheers and HTH

Scott '30/85/86/87' J
Euros aplenty


-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Lloyd <spotatashleys at hotmail.com>
To: Steve Mills <s.b.mills at gmail.com>; urq <urq at audifans.com>
Sent: Mon, Jun 25, 2012 1:55 pm
Subject: Re: [urq] High beam indicator stuck on, high beam stalk has no effect- 
what did I break?


Hi Steve
I don't think I can help re the main bean light staying on with returned to 
stock wiring but I can tell you that I made myself a headlight wiring loom 
from a coupe  quattro donor car loom and relayed the lights taking power 
direct from the alternator and taking the main/dip feed to trigger the 
relays from the now redundant original main beam plug. And I had the same 
issue i.e. having switch the main beam on, it would not them go off unless I 
turned the lights off all together (although the dash main beam indicator 
would go off) . Also dip beam would be on on all the time even on side light 
setting.
I still have the issue but rarely use the car at night so it's not a 
problem - but it is on my list to fix! I guess it is something to do with 
the live feed triggering the relays.....??????
So what I am saying is that whatever your loom suppliers provided you with - 
it's probably been done properly in terms normal wiring on normal cars.... 
but there is something odd about urq wiring they and I have not yet 
fathomed. Perhaps a shared feed with dip beam or something odd done with 
earthing to switch main beam on and off???? I hope someone on the list comes 
up with the answer because relaying is the way to go...makes it like 
daylight. Unfortunately oncoming motorists don't share my enthusiasm.
All the best

Keith

'87 WR


-----Original Message----- 
From: Steve Mills
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 6:31 PM
To: urq at audifans.com
Subject: [urq] High beam indicator stuck on, high beam stalk has no effect- 
what did I break?

I had Susquehanna Motorsports build a relayed harness to properly power the
euro H1/H4 headlights on my 85 UrQ. Unfortunately the harness had some
wiring issues- the high beams would latch on and not shut off unless I
turned the headlights off completely.

I wasn't happy with how I had the harness powered and routed, so after
using it on the drive up and back from Winter Driving school I've pulled
the harness out of the car and only have the low beams connected. Despite
putting the wiring back to stock, the high beam indicator is on all the
time and pulling on the high/low beam stalk has no effect. I can't really
tell whether the highs are really on or not because they're not connected,
but the high beam indicator certainly thinks they are.

Did I fry the stalk, or is the problem potentially somewhere else? I
checked the wiring diagram in the Bentley and there doesn't appear to be a
relay or anything else involved in switching between high and low. All I
see is power from the switch to the stalk, and then from the stalk to the
headlights- I was expecting the stalk to trigger a relay somewhere, but
there's no evidence of it I can see in the wiring diagram. Am I missing
something? Any hints would be useful- I've created some adapter harnesses
so I can wire in the high beams, but I don't want to wire in the highs if
I'm just going to blind oncoming traffic.



 
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