[urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars

Sat Sep 15 20:20:05 PDT 2012

3582 with a .63 a/r?!

Wow... that's a lot of turbo.  I've run the 3076 with both a .63 and a .82 housing.  The .63 resulted in substantial compressor surge when boost first came on... too much air for a 2.2 to flow at low rpm's.  Graphed it against the compressor map, and it became obvious.

The .82 worked excellent.  Yes, a little longer wait for boost, but no surge.  FWIW, the ball bearing Garretts don't live long with compressor surge.  Mine dumped its ball bearings into the oil pan via the oil return line... its life was short.  The .82 worked for nearly 70k miles.  It didn't fail, my headgasket did.

Nonetheless, your 3582 has a 68mm turbine wheel compared to the 3076's 60mm wheel... so not really apples to apples.  I was also 100hp short of your mark, assuming your figure was wheel hp.

Dave 

-----Original Message-----
From: Claus Vegener <cv at direkte.org>
To: martin <martin at quattro.ca>; urq <urq at audifans.com>; Scott Justusson <qshipq at aol.com>
Sent: Sat, Sep 15, 2012 9:33 am
Subject: Re: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars

I agree with Scott. WG flutter is a very annoying phenomena
where the beginning of opening of the WG releases too much power from the 
turbine,
that the boost initial goes from 30 psi and then drop to 20 and then 3 or 4 
boost flutters
before reaching a stable and expected boost.
This very hard to engine and mountings with that fluctuating power.
I have an idea, that my turbine housing is too small, so the turbo is too 
sensitive to opening the WG
Claus
Urq83 3B
Garrett GT3582R A/R.63
560Hp/550Nm
28psi 7500rpm

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Justusson" <qshipq at aol.com>
To: <martin at quattro.ca>; <urq at audifans.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars

> Yuk again. Your vid shows compressor stall too.  Add more bypass valves, 
> you can make it go away, take the bypass valve out, you can increase the 
> stall sound.  What most don't realize is that pressure spike under load is 
> *massive*, more than a 1in, 2in, and even 3in bypass valve can dump fast 
> enough to prevent some stall when the throttle slams shut.  I've measured 
> peak spikes on a k2610vt in the 70-100psi range.  That's gonna make a 
> lotta noise if you then take a 650hp S1 with a monster turbo, and slam the 
> throttle shut as it's ramping up, under load.
>
> Look at any groupB rally vid.  You can never hear the sound from behind 
> the car, where the WG dumps, you ALWAYS hear it as the car comes at you. 
> That's because it's happening at the compressor side, not the exhaust. 
> Take all 10minutes of that video below, and point me to WG 'chirp' or WG 
> flutter.
>
> You guys are making my coffee taste funny, but appreciate the chuckles
>
> Really Martin?!
>
> SJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Pajak <martin at quattro.ca>
> To: 'Scott Justusson' <qshipq at aol.com>; urq <urq at audifans.com>
> Sent: Sat, Sep 15, 2012 9:28 am
> Subject: RE: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars
>
>
> Scott,
>
> Yuk yourself, on my car your "flutter" shounds like a "chirp", not as loud 
> as an S1 but I love it anyway.
>
> You can hear it better here.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmAELGuIgE
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> From: Scott Justusson [mailto:qshipq at aol.com]
> Sent: 15-Sep-12 10:00
> To: martin at quattro.ca; urq at audifans.com
> Subject: Re: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars
>
>
>
> Yuk.  Wastegate 'flutter' is not the 'chirp' being referred to.  Wastegate 
> flutter (an open throttle pheonomenon) can't be heard on any rally car, 
> even if you left the WG exhaust open to atmo.  Go :40sec into this vid, 
> then tray again at 5:50-6:10...  Better yet, watch all 10 minutes and find 
> an instance of WG chatter, I sure couldn't do it.  But I'm sure you guys 
> know better.....
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejIhA2UhfNA
>
> Come on boys, I mean...  Really!?!?
>
> Scott 'chipin' J
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Pajak <martin at quattro.ca>
> To: phil <phil at isham-research.co.uk>; urq <urq at audifans.com>
> Sent: Sat, Sep 15, 2012 8:26 am
> Subject: Re: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars
>
>
> Hi Phil,
>
> Must be something to it, I have a stock wastegate, a big 50mm Tial dump
> valve (setup with proper spring for nice pssssh, it is open at idle).
> 3071r turbo with mushroom HKS filter.  Yet I still get the chirping sound
> from the exhaust side of the engine, in addition to the whoosh from the 
> dump
> (so I do not think it is a stall).  You can sort of hear it here, but it 
> is
> much better in real life.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIyj8El8jkA
>
> Cheers
> Martin Pajak
>
> http://www.quattro.ca
>
> 1982 Audi Ur-quattro, SQ project
> 1983 Audi 80 quattro, Euro 2-Tür
> 1983 Audi Ur-quattro, Stock Helios Blue
> 1984 Audi Ur-quattro, 20vt with 6-speed
> 1993 Audi 90 CS quattro, 2.5 TDI with 6-speed
> 1993 Audi 80 quattro Avant, 2.5 TDI with 6-speed
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: urq-bounces at audifans.com [mailto:urq-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf
> Of Phil Payne
> Sent: 15-Sep-12 03:56
> To: 'Scott Justusson'; ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com; koenigj at comcast.net;
> urq at audifans.com
> Subject: Re: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars
>
> Well, here we go again.  I once had a long history of disagreeing with
> Scott.
>
> The chatter that I hear is almost always wastegate.  I've had Snap-off
> piezo-electric microphones all over the engine bay and that's where it's
> coming from.
>
> However, I do very much agree with the problems that turbo stall can cause
> on turbos - especially the K24.  What exacerbates this problem (in the UK)
> is that the dominant turbo rebuilder (http://www.aet-turbos.co.uk/ - good
> guys) won't accept a turbo with a broken shaft as an exchange item. 
> Having
> seen them strip one, I can understand why.
>
> I also agree with the comments about bypass valve capacity.
>
> I've got other reservations.  Over here, Bailey is a dominant supplier of
> bypass (and blow-off) valves, but their product has a non-linear opening
> characteristic that I believe results in some back pressure before it 
> opens.
> The unit Audi fitted to the ur-quattro 20V (035 145 710) has a much 
> smoother
> opening profile but - as Scott implies - does have a restricted capacity.
>
> Nevertheless - I do agree that fitting such a valve increases turbo 
> lifetime
> and is in general a very good, cheap and easily reversed modification. 
> For
> most untweaked 10Vs I recommend the 20V part (number above) but do make 
> sure
> that you don't impede airflow over the turbo and exhaust manifold when you
> fit it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: urq-bounces at audifans.com [mailto:urq-bounces at audifans.com] On Behalf
> Of Scott Justusson
> Sent: 15 September 2012 04:22
> To: ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com; koenigj at comcast.net; urq at audifans.com
> Subject: Re: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars
>
> Except all WRC and ProRally urq's chattered, from day 1, btwitnessedt.
> Read: Only the later cars had the recirc setup.  In the early cars and 
> even
> the reference below, it was not 'wastegate' chatter it was always 
> compressor
> stall from a turbo spooling up and the throttle slamming shut.  There were
> no bypass valves in the early cars, so with big turbos, you heard the
> compressor stall.  On Buffum's drives back in the early 80's, you would 
> hear
> that chirping 5 miinutes before you even saw the car.
>
> We actually get a lot of it quite noticeable at Steamboat with the 20vt
> k24's.  When I discussed it with Ned Ritchie years ago, we figured it was
> the turbo working beyond the ability of the bypass valve to dump at 
> altitude
> (with tires on ice spinning up under load), that caused turbo stall.  If 
> you
> really like that noise, put a cone filter in place of the airbox, you will
> hear compressor stall during street driving.  Or put a restrictor in the
> bypass valve, or plug the bypass valve all together.
>
> All that said, it's not a healthy noise for turbo longevity, especially on 
> a
> k24, btblewthat up at steamboat in my 10vt k24 urq.  That small shaft 
> can't
> take the thrust load of the stall.
>
> Cheers, hey Roland, and my .02
>
> Scott J
> chirping 20vt 4kq cone filter
> 84 urq
> 83 urq
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Kraus <ub3ratl4sf00 at gmail.com>
> To: John Koenig <koenigj at comcast.net>; urq <urq at audifans.com>
> Sent: Fri, Sep 14, 2012 9:03 pm
> Subject: Re: [urq] Wastegate "Chirp" on Rally, SCCA and IMSA Race Cars
>
>
> For more info:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_Quattro#Sport_Quattro_S1_E2
>
> The boost pressure was recirculated into the turbo when the driver comes 
> off
> the throttle, the throttle plate closes, the extra boost pressure
> recirculated back into the turbo, keeping it spooling for when the 
> throttle
> plate re-opens.
>
> No loss of boost pressure when the driver shifts and engine resume high
> speed instantly, but the brief blockage of the pressure and recirculating
> air makes the turbo chatter.
> _______________________________________________
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