[urq] dissin on CIS

[Scott Justusson]

 LOL, not dissin as much as experience facing realities *with* many urq owners over the years, many right on this very forum.  Long-standing urq owners are aging with these Mistresses we call Quattro Steve.  With that comes a change from the passion to tweek and the patience to allow her 'personalities' to show at the worst time.  I spend a significant amount of urq labor, on just plain counseling.  Corbs quandry is a standard issue PM/phone conversation in my world.  My patience for 'one more project' on my toys wanes, not just from it being my job during the day, but because I find my 'enjoyment' of toys changing over the years.  I want to play with my toys, not build, rebuild and accept the original specification issues.

I have many stories of Quattro enthusiasts (not the DIY boys) that have less 'free' time to escape with their mistress for a romp.  Which means exactly, when they do, enjoyment eclipses unacceptable fussiness at a significant priority level.  A 20vt Motronic conversion can help us age with our mistresses in a kind way, without the overwhelming draw to a younger, less finicky drive.  Add in the hassle factor of finding 'the' CIS guru, significan- others rolling eyes about dropping you off there 'again', and the reality, that as we age, the 'family' view of the urq becomes a significant factor.  If no one trusts it but you, you won't be driving it much with passengers.

I know all these things, because I've counseled many on these exact issues.  Here the OP is a classic example. I know Corbs could do all the work himself, as he's a most capable wrench.  The car has been sitting (with some issue) for years until he could find a guy to do the work.  Which means exactly he has found a substitute mistress in the interim, and/or he lost the passion for taking the time required to make this car have *value to him!*  The last part is the most significant.

I absolute roll my eyes at the thought of an urq owner looking for resale value, and basing owner decisions on them.  By the time a 20vt resto-mod done right has less value than the original, I suspect most of us will not care.  I counsel about Mistresses theory more than any other.  Spend and waste your money in what gives your car *value* to you.  Dawson's quote is dead nuts on...  You spend money to give the car some unknown future market value, the best thing you can do, is just lock her in your garage and don't screw with her at all.

CIS?  My daughter in college 6 hours away had a CIS-E CGT.  A 3mm allen and an extra DPR in case something happened to that 110hp monster.  I don't have the same confidence that an urq would be nearly as reliable to remotely fix and/or maintain.  However, a bone stock 3B converted urq?  In a heartbeat, because it's just that much more betta.  

I see nothing pure about a less than pristine mint original urq, then only to say you own one.  The rest of us that like to romp with our mistresses often?  3B is a no-brainer on so many levels, *and* you willl find the family will want to take that urq, instead of tolerating it and your lust.

Scott J
84 urq
83 urq
87 4k20vtq





-----Original Message-----
From: urq <urq at pacbell.net>
To: urq <urq at audifans.com>
Sent: Thu, Jul 11, 2013 9:35 am
Subject: Re: [urq] dissin on CIS


. funny, sounds like dissin to me . but that's OK, and of course I agree
with some of the notes on characteristics.  That is not to say that there
are things that can be done to minimize them . like making sure your hoses
don't fall off!

An urq is a 30 year old car, and I'd hazard a guess that even with Motronic
you can end up sitting on the side of the road with pissed off passengers
from time to time.  I happen to recall one instance with an ABZ equipped urq
(fortunately no passengers ;).  BTDT myself on a Motronic equipped sedan,
which tends to piss them off more than I think they would had they been in a
more "fun" car . 

As is evident from my FB page, I know full well the issues with the WX urq
at 12,000 feet . fortunately for me I don't often spend much time there .
never had much problem with mine below about 7500 . 

Steve Buchholz

 

From: Scott Justusson [mailto:qshipq at aol.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 6:28 AM
To: urq at pacbell.net; urq at audifans.com
Subject: Re: [urq] dissin on CIS

 

LOL, I don't diss on CIS, I still have a couple, and work on several.  Let
me share my 35 years of CIS experience (back to my 91 Pro Rally Scirocco),
and 20 on urq's specifically.  First, the problem with urq CIS is not the
starting... Several years ago, I had a 'sold' urq in my shop for almost a
year, and when I needed to move it every couple months it started right
up....  It's 'after' that cold start that 2 major issues come into play.

First one is a nitpick of mine, the Mac02 IMO, was never designed to have an
Oxygen sensor.  When that circuit was added, there is a noticeable fallout
stumble in the transition to Closed Loop operation.  I have yet to *not* see
it in the 20 some urq's I've worked on, and the 'later' Mac02 programming
slighting improved, but didn't eliminate the problem.  A finely tuned urq
will have 'less', and average urq will have more.  I operate on two minty
low mileage ones over the years, it's there...  Always.

Second, it's not the cold start, it's the hot restart that creates a
problem.  This is caused by a hot turbo and exhaust manifold heat guns,
located directly below the intake and cis lines and injectors.  Again, based
on tune and hot start circuit condition, it can be 'better' or 'worse', but
it can't be eliminated.  IME2 at altitude it's more pronounced (regardless
of tune).  I have pictures of more than 1 urq at our early Steamboat urq
reunions, of various 'non starters' getting towed around snow covered
parking lots.

Lastly, any boost leak in an urq, will and can strand a driver on a
restart..  A boost leak in motronic has to be a hose missing...  BTDT to
both.  I will say this, I've never owned a CIS car without a 3mm allen in
the glovebox.  Even my CISE cars have them, albeit not used often.

Me, I say anyone that hasn't owned or DD driven a Motronic converted urq or
4kq, will be the ONLY one's that will defend the CIS.  There is just a
refinement there that can't be matched by the best state of WX tune.  I
still own both, this is more obvious a statement than it might appear.  

Finally, you guys need to really look at the resto-mod market to understand
where the market trends are.  Guys that can afford $30k+ urq's (or 50k
muscle-cars) don't want to carry tools, work 3mm allens, don't want to have
a hot start problem with the valet on a night out in their toy, don't want
to be stranded for a flooded urq.  They want to get in the car a drive it
like their wife's toyota SUV.  Not borrow the wife's SUV because 'urq
happened'.

Performance tuning?  Only an incidental, not primary benefit.  I will say
this, a 2.5bar chipped 3B with a k24 is what I DD in my 4kq.  Without
question, it could have 'more', but the torque and the response and
refinement of this setup, is really tough to beat.

There is nothing simple about CIS sitting on the side of the road with no
tools, and pissed off passengers.  BTDT2.

Cheers

Scott J