[Vwdiesel] RE: Vwdiesel Digest, Vol 6, Issue 31

Wed Apr 21 11:06:25 EDT 2004

I think one important point here that I can honestly comment on, any VW 
diesel would last too 200-250k miles with minimal maintenace and cheap oil, 
but having an engine last too 500k miles without rebuilding is common with 
synthetics and careful monitoring.  I have owned about 12, many were abused 
when I got them but still ran fine (all had over 200k). It is getting the 
engine to double that life that takes some special care and high quality 
lubes, especially when 5 months of the year have below freezing temps at 
night.
My fathers 300 SD td Mercedes went 300k miles on regular oil with regular 
changes (5k intervals), then we fixed any leaks and went to synthetic, now 
we run 10k intervals with a filter inbetween, the car has never been happier 
(now at 500k) and zero consumption/leaks. I have a harder time running my 
TDI that long cause the oil STINKS after 6-7k due to the EGR (and it is shut 
down as much as the computer allows).
I am not trying to stir up anyones anger, but I firmly believe if you want 
an engine to last (I mean LAST 500k+) you have to use the best (synthetic, 
group 4 diesel oil) especially in turbo applications and obviously take good 
care of the car so the rest is still around as long as the engine!
I would say most people are quite happy if their car passes 200k and then no 
longer care about, it has paid for itself and is no longer reliable in their 
view, I am the opposite, I find there is no reason a 500k VW is not 
reliable. I have never had any serious engine problems or failures in the 
ten years of VW diesels I have had, and over a million miles already between 
the four drivers in the family and 12 cars. No headgaskets even.
I have had to retire a couple due to rust (rusty when I got them, drove them 
till the drivers seat fell out!) but I still used syn oil etc cause the 
engine lives on in another car... Now I kinda wished I had kept them, they 
are getting rare all of a sudden, no more cheap transportation!
I do see Val's point about cost over lifetime, but what if the engine never 
wore out? I also fo three times the distance he does between changes, much 
less oil use and it kinda pays for itself then (the syn price difference). I 
have not installed any bypass oil filters yet, maybe this summer and then I 
will really extend the drain intervals!
Greg

I>Message: 6
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Val Christian <val at swamps.roc.ny.us>
>Subject: [Vwdiesel] Tradeoffs and Cheap Lube (long)
>To: vwdiesel at vwfans.com
>Cc: "H .Hagar" <h_hagar at prcn.org>
>Message-ID: <200404210136.VAA25340 at swamps.roc.ny.us>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>To clarify a few things...
>
> > This is first hand experience.     In a lots of blow-by Rabbits ----lots 
>=
> > of fuel
> > winds up downstairs.  Remember all the accounts of  "she is not using =
> > oil" ???
> > wrong ----it is being replaced by fuel.    I do believe Val Christian   
>=
> > ----is telling
> > it from personal experience. I also agree with him.  -----But read my =
>
>
>	Generally the older 1.5 high blow-by Rabbits had the problem that
>	excessive oil splatter would collect in the intake manifold.
>	It would get to a critical level, and then you had a mega
>	horsepower (the brakes WOULD NOT STOP IT) runaway car.
>
>	There is a secondary issue in that usually a high miler would
>	also have incomplete atomization at the injectors, and drippy
>	injectors, which would lead to crankcase oil dilution.  In many
>	high mileage Rabbits I didn't see tons of this, although it
>	did exist.
>
>	The runaway engine was more of a oil-in-the-intake phenomenon.
>
>	It is well documented that oil dilution is a common problem in
>	high time diesel engines.
>
>
> > Val Christian has had Rabbits from day one so when he tells us something 
>=
>
>
>	I think what Hagar is alluding to is my oil policy.  In general,
>	I buy the best oil I think I can get for the early life of my
>	engines, and I tend to change more frequently than recommended.
>
>	As my cars pass through 100Kmiles or 150Kmiles, I tend to use
>	different oils.  There are diminishing returns on high end oil.
>
>	Early in my ownership of diesels, it was easy to get reasonable
>	oil at reasonable prices.  Probably around 84 or so, the CD and
>	SF ratings (I may have the exact timing and exact ratings wrong)
>	became mutually exclusive. Consequently, cheap oil became more
>	difficult to get.  I simply started using SF or SG oil, in the
>	same brands as I had used before.  I figured that things like
>	soot handling were not as critical when I changed oil at 2500
>	or 3000 mile intervals.  I had several Rabbits that I was the
>	original owner, and in general, they rusted out before the
>	engines required anything more than a head rebuild and a
>	reringing. (never rebored a VW diesel)
>
>	Stated differently, over a 250K mile life (conservative), the
>	"incorrect oil", changing oil at 2500 mile intervals, we're talking
>	100 oil changes.  Using SF/SG/SH oil, I probably paid about 4 or 5
>	bucks a change.  Let's say $500.  To upgrade the oil to a CD
>	oil, we're talking an expenditure of about $1500.  $1000 difference.
>	As near as I can tell, after comparing notes with many local
>	Rabbit and Mercedes owners, I get as good engine life as anyone
>	else.  Certainly good enough that the measurement error is
>	as great as any other obvious difference.
>
>	In a high time engine, there are many benefits of frequent oil
>	changes.  Blowby contaminates the oil with soot, acids and other
>	by products.  Some of these contaminants are not effectively
>	filtered, and are best controlled by swapping out the engine
>	oil.  Perhaps it's just a physchoogical thing, but I feel
>	better doing $5 oil changes, than $12 or $15 oil changes.
>
>	In older cars, I tend to change the filter at 5K to 10Kmile
>	intervals.  Depending upon the car, conditions, etc.
>
>	Having said all that, in my 03 Jetta, I'm using Shell Rotella
>	Synthetic, 5W-40, which is about $12.88 at Walmart.  I can
>	afford that, and the synthetic makes allot of sense with a
>	turbo, and the temperature cycles that the oil goes through.
>	A case of VW filters is less than $6 each (wholesale) from the
>	dealer, so 03 Jetta oil changes are affordable.
>
>	Hagar is right in that although there are scientific tools to
>	help us understand our oil, the actual practice and results
>	of oil selection and maintenance are sometimes hard to
>	quantify, and appear as more of an art form.
>
>	Some group members have gone to conditional based oil changes,
>	relying upon testing.  That's great.  Especially if you have
>	a lab discount.  Some of us do a partial analysis using paper
>	chromatography.  It might help to also get pH, particulate
>	and soluable contaminants (like fuel).
>
>	In the end, I don't really know what is right, but I do know
>	where I have an imperfectly formed comfort level.  And all of
>	this writing has served to remind me that I have 15 gal of used
>	oil to get recycled.
>
>	Val
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:13:33 -0700
>From: "Shawn Wright" <swright at zuiko.sls.bc.ca>
>Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] Tradeoffs and Cheap Lube (long)
>To: vwdiesel at vwfans.com
>Message-ID: <4085684D.28659.1BFEFFA5 at localhost>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>On 20 Apr 2004 at 21:36, Val Christian <val at swamps.roc.ny.us> wrote:
>
> > To clarify a few things...
> >
>
><snip interesting background on oil habits :-) >
>
> > 	In the end, I don't really know what is right, but I do know
> > 	where I have an imperfectly formed comfort level.  And all of
> > 	this writing has served to remind me that I have 15 gal of used
> > 	oil to get recycled.
>
>In a pinch, some of this could be used a chainsaw bar oil... I still can't 
>find my jug of
>chain oil, and the used oil jugs were handy, and well, I was in a rush, 
>so...
>
>Really, it can't be *that* much worse for the environment than new chain 
>oil can
>it?...
>
>:-o
>
>--
>Shawn Wright
>http://Zuiko.sls.bc.ca/swright
>~This message sent by Pegasus Mail, the safe E-Mail alternative~
>"Friends don't let friends use Outlook"
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
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>
>End of Vwdiesel Digest, Vol 6, Issue 31
>***************************************

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