[Vwdiesel] RE: Vwdiesel Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5

[greg rich]

Oh oh, were getting into some serious discussions again, here we go!
I would NEVER EVER EVER buy a TDI given a choice, yes we have two of them, 
for the ladies in the family (read before you think I am sexist). My wife 
needed to replace here 91 Tercel after ten years of faithful cost free 
ownership (think a set of brakes and a muffler in 160k miles of owership 
above normal maintenace). See liked the diesel idea but wouldn't drive a 
manual trans-question was answered had to be TDI since it is the only 
automatic and it had to be new no twenty year old Mercedes (for my sake). 
Then my Mom wanted another car cause I sold her diesel on her (90 Jetta td 
Pacific edition with 200k miles), we had a trade in at work a 10 month old 
Jetta tdi just like my wife's (fully loaded silver with heated black 
leather/roof/automatic) and the price was right-my parents get in the car 
and drive to the cottage at the drop of a hat 3 hours away and go anywhere 
in north america for any reason (retired) maybe to visit family or whatever 
so it had to be reliable and it had to be fast cause Mom has a lead foot and 
overdrives the poor 1.6 (not a diesel person). This was her car. Plus I was 
sick of done bodywork on old cars every summer, it is nice having a 12 year 
warranty!
My Dad and I are the opposite-prefer back roads, keep it under 60mph, go for 
the distance each and every tank...he drives a Toyota 4X4 turbo diesel, vey 
slow and torquey.
I drive a 1987 Jetta n/a diesel, it has 300k miles on the original motor 
that even dropped a timing belt and survived without any repairs. I put a 
straight through exhaust and played with the pump of a week and I get fuel 
economy no automatic TDI can even come close to-going 75 mph for ten hours 
straight on the highway and its empty after 700 miles, go 55mph and its 
empty after 900miles. The TDIs go 600 miles tops no matter what speed 
(totally stock) and I have tested it going to Florida 60mph-never broke 
59mpg (imperial).
Mine is very comfortable to sit for days at a time (not kidding), easy to 
see and drive, reliable and great handling-the new Jetta is very 
uncormfortable to sit in for more the three hours, it is quiet and but 
doesn't handle anywhere near as well as the older cars, the suspension 
detoriorates much faster (ride quality is really poor at 120k miles now). I 
can put anything in my car, it will actually fit, try putting a set of 
wheels in the new cars, won't sit in the trunk, try a TV set, won't 
fit...the new cars are way too small were it counts (like trunk opening or 
back door access). The 87 is noisy due to the exhaust but not that much 
noisier then a TDI when it was stock (keep in mind the windows on the 85-87 
were very thick, then 88 up models had bigger windows and much thinner 
glass-way noisier and the 91-92 had a bad resonance inside the car that the 
earlier cars did not have), sure more noise at idle but I shut mine down 
when sitting at lights etc.
Neither car is a chore to work on, both have there merits-the 87 is dead 
simple nothing to break but it does have the occasional broken bolt/rusty 
part. The TDI takes a good day to change the timing belt and clean the 
intercooler but it is dead easy cause everything is still like new (no 
stripped or broken bolts). I have not invested in any new tools over the 1.6 
diesel. I have a friend with VAG_COM the one time is was needed to set up 
pump timing. The TDI seems intimidating but I have not had any trouble with 
it that I could not diagnose over the internet. TDI parts are coming down 
fast in price as demand increases, not yet at 1.6 prices but half of they 
started out at.

If you set up your 1.6 it will way out do a TDI mileage wise as Hagar has 
mentioned-the 1.6 had no emmision requirements like the TDI had to meet nor 
was power a concern-imagine building a 1.6 from scratch what one could do 
(port and polish head, oil squirter pistons, cold air or ram air intake etc) 
and improve economy even more. It will not have TDI power plain and simple. 
The TDI does very well for the amount of power it has, but it uses more fuel 
under light load then the 1.6. It is not capable of running as lean I guess 
you could say. (nor adjustable in that respect-yet). In stock form the tdi 
gives better mpg then the 1.6 for the average driver, but hill billy tuned 
the 1.6 is much better if you take care drving it-I have no problem with 
52hp-I can pass everyone on the road if needed-90mph top speed and it gets 
to 80mph very fast for non turbo and it out handles any SUV driver out 
there. I only have trouble on long hill climbs-not a problem in the east. 
You have to know your road that is all and maintain speed through corners so 
at the exit you can pass the idiots infront of you. Drafting helps too if 
done right (but if your tailgating and suddenly pull out OOPS bad move with 
52hp, not so with TDI). I can get mysellf into PLENTY OF TROUBLE with 52hp, 
ie way too much speed for the road conditions, believe me. I see absolutely 
no reason for TDI power cause the cars cannot handle it period! Wheel spin 
is lost energy and torque steer means the chasis is overpowered. I don't see 
the point of extra power if it is always "in reserve". Matters well drive a 
car full out and not have any surprises when asking for more power (like 
spinning out in snow) makes a better driver/safer one.
I find the 1.6 runs a similar rpm as the tdi (or atleast I run it the same 
manner-shift as early as possible) it just depends on your transmission, 
most TDIs have lower gearing.
My point is the TDI is really unnecessary for the size of our cars, give me 
an SDI (nonturbo) and I would be happy. Vanagons need TDIs, or Eurovans, not 
small cars. They don't build a good enough car to handle the power (under 
damped, torque steer, wheel spin, clutch issuses). The 1.6 was enough for 
all my needs, I out drive my wife all the time in my 1.6 when we are 
traveling together, its not that she can't drive well its the car that can't 
handle the speed/corners! (hello oil pan and pavement!). She always got away 
from me in her Tercel (she would burry the TACH NEEDLE!!! 100 mph was like 
5500 rpms) but that was before hill billy tuning...
Greg
You're digging your heels in Hagar.  The 2003 Jetta TDI is nicer in the
>following ways:
>
>	-electronically available information
>		-fuel flow
>		-torque
>		-tons more
>	-lots of power
>	-lots of torque, hence lower RPM for a given speed compared
>	 with my 1991 IDI diesel engine
>	-better performance at high DENALT
>	-car interior at least 15 db quieter at 75 MPH cruise
>
>The same car is not so nice in the following ways:
>
>	-order of magnitude increase in complexity
>		-computerized vs. mechanical fuel control
>		-blown engine vs. normally aspirated
>	-heavy dependence on electrical power / electronics
>		-long term risk with repairs and old age service
>		-increased risk in RF/EMP/lightening strike areas
>		-more than insignificant electric needs when running
>		 (especially after cold WX starts)
>	-car handling really sucks compared to 1991 Jetta
>		-camber non-adjustable (you get what you get)
>		-higher caster creates a more unstable front end
>		 (higher maintenance driving in gusty crosswinds)
>	-maintenance less flexible
>		-turbo requires synthetic oil, fewer choices
>		-oil change requires lower cowling removal
>	-seats inferior to anything I've had in a VW diesel, including
>	 low-end Rabbits
>	-damn running lights don't turn off if you need them off
>
> >From my perspective, there is no simple answer as to which of the two 
>Jettas
>are preferable.
>
>Looking at value, the 91, NA diesel, is currently a very low cost car,
>and the systems on it are simple.  To a degree, the parts are lower
>cost and more readily available.  If cost were the object, it would
>be the car of choice.  In every respect, except kick ass performance,
>and interior noise, it is absolutely fine.
>
>Driving the Jetta NA diesel, which is about the most underpowered car
>I've owned, is like flying a glider.  Energy management is the key to
>success, especially in mountainous terrain.  Keep in mind that this
>car has the same engine as a Rabbit, at nearly 50% the weight increase.
>
>The 03 TDI, is more difficult to source parts for, unless the dealer is
>your primary parts supplier.  That drives up the prices considerably.
>The car is not as confortable as the 91, interms of seats and interms
>of handling characteristics.  It has power comparable to a normal gasser,
>but for 99% of my driving, that power is never needed.
>
>In the long haul, adjusted for inflation, my guess is that the 91 will
>cost less per mile and year of ownership, than the 03 will.  And I'm not
>so impatient that the higher power of the 03 tips the overall scale, when
>complexity and system robustness are also considered.
>
>Val
>
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>
> >
> >
> >   Hagar,
> >
> > You mention the integration of electronics and injection pumps.... If =
> > you
> > have the opportunity, drive one of the TDI VW diesels. On second =
> > thought,
> > don't, because you will be spoiled.=20
> >
> > Spoiling Hagar ?   --- not a chance ----  you cant spoil a rotten egg.  
>=
> > I worked with an
> > old guy and he had two sayings that stuck with me. Rotten egg was one =
> > and
> > "You cant sometimes always win"  was the other. Bless his soul he died =
> > from tobacco.
> >
> > IMHO -- if you are a genius at 50   you were a genius at 5 --- blessed =
> > or cursed depending.
> >
> > Take a good close look at a HP --Jet printer ----  injection system -- =
> > perfected.(genius involved).
> >
> > I know what you are hinting at LEE  ----and I am trying to get a ride in 
>=
> > a TDI. I had
> > a Golf TDI on order last year ,  but the 1984 Rabbit turbo ---is =
> > spoiling me every day.
> > The stealership had a hard time filling orders.(black only , shit I want 
>=
> > light blue)
> >
> > I cherish my Hillbilly image --- a lot.  -- sort of being a Mother =
> > Theresa ( Teresa?) for Rabbits.
> > NO cat scans no MRI's--- but simple treatment that works.
> >
> > For hillbilly TUNING of a Rabbit no laptop needed ---not even a dial =
> > indicator or
> > a compression gauge.-----but you must pay close attention , and listen =
> > when
> > the rabbit talks to you.
> >
> > A Rabbit 19xx will limp home if someone steals the battery ---try that =
> > with your TDI.
> >
> > I am here to help the temporarily "Down on the luck"  the others really 
>=
> > do not need
> > me.
> >
> > But I am all for high tech answers to pollution and shortage of oil. A =
> > 1980 Rabbit
> > will beat the pants of a 2004 Hybrid gasser any day of the week.-- Now =
> > that indicates
> > the Hybrids are a promotion gimmick. --- To sell cars they stick in a =
> > stack of D cells
> > and pretend it is a partly electric (clean) car.   wrong, BUT they are =
> > pointing the way.
> >
> > For those of you with dual beam oscilloscopes, to check dynamic timing =
> > is a piece of cake.
> > If you have a Gasser type timing light -- it can be made to do a Rabbit. 
>=
> >
> >
> > Rambling with a BIG glass of V8 in my hand. ----V8 juice ?.
> >
> > Hagar.

>

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