[Vwdiesel] Starting a cccccold Rabbit ---( Mike Smith Bondo

[Val Christian]

Probably beating the cold to death...

My assumption is that the propane cylinder is inside, and warm prior to
start.  My experience at -40F is limited to probably about two dozen 
starts, but I've been able to run a prewarmed propane torch for long 
enough to warm the oil sump.  The vapor point of propane is -44, so it
is marginal.  MAPP gas has a higher specific heat, and burns hotter.  
I believe the heat of vaporization of MAPP is less also, but unfortunately,
methyl acetylene vaporizes at about -10F, and propadien at -30F, so 
it's not practical at these temperatures.  

I recently tried using a 1850 watt hairdryer to heat something.  It was
-10F, and the output temp of the air from the dryer measured 35F.
It took forever to melt ice.  Heatguns are designed to run at higher
temps, so there are usually ways to lower the airflow, and get higher 
temps.

At one point I pulled to starter of the Rabbit that spent the most 
time in the extreme cold.  Hundreds of -20F starts, and possibly 
20 starts at -40F on this starter.  It had been used to motor the 
car up a ramp, and to move it around the yard under battery power.
I thought that I would certainly find solder splashed around all over.
None.  Not a bit.  The brushes were ready to be replaced, but after
15 years of use on that car, it looked just fine, except that the 
pinion gear teeth were about 1/2 of their initial thickness.  The
car had well over 300Kmiles of use.  

As for the camp stove...used on aircraft oil, we heated the can until 
snow sizzled on the can.  Then the oil is set aside and the engine is 
preheated.  As it warms up, the oil is poured in.  The objective is to
get everything toasty enough so that only normal priming is needed to
start, as running the accelerator pump during start is the leading 
cause of carb fires.

Val


> 
> At -40 a propane torch doesn't burn... not enough vapor pressure to produce
> sufficient gas to burn.
> 1500 watt hairdryer on high does make a difference...smaller ones wouldn't,
> agreed. heat gun would work nicely too for that matter, but they tend to
> melt plastic when they blow at one spot for any length of time.  The temp
> gain doesn't seem to be of that great a significance, other than a bit of
> heat seems to help a lot.  I've seen this on other diesels, where a lame
> little resistance element preheats the incoming air charge on large
> displacement diesels, and just taking the chill off the air is the
> difference between starting, or not.
> 
> My experience with a dead glow plug differs slightly.  On the order of crank
> for a couple minutes while it goes chug....chug...chug...  It either starts,
> or the starter windings glow like a toaster.  I think the differences are
> between Na and turbo engines... the slightly lower compression of the turbo
> engine most likely has a noticeable effect here. I've just had no luck
> starting without all four working.  -15 is the limit for one down for me.
> Started the Golf 1.9td the other day at -40 without being plugged in at all-
> it was only -10 when I went to bed, and -40 when I got up.  Started on first
> try, relaly not a big production at all.... until the fuel gelled and it
> stopped.  Getting Kerosene into the fuel filter at -40 while in a hurry...
> in the dark...should have had a movie camera on that production.
> 
> I dunno what to say about the dead glow plug thing.  If Mike was closer, I
> would just drive to his place and pull the damn thing out. Stuck parts in
> aluminum suck, but vee haff vays of gettink dat out.... Heat, properly
> applied, patience, some skunk piss, and good wrenches all have an additive
> effect.
> 
> I certainly agree with ether starts... it can kill things fast enough.
> Wreck a starter?  heck, I've seen chunks of rod and block blown across the
> neighbor's yard on a Perkins engine.  They tolerate a minute long blast of
> ether poorly it seems :-)  BUT, that said, careful use of ether hurts
> nothing.  You want to be careful with that friend spraying the stuff, rather
> blow it on a paper towel, and have him hold it over the snorkel. If he uses
> too much and he falls over, at least it won't hurt the car...
> Only cans that don't go empty by themselves are the Kleen-Flo brand I have
> found.  With Brake cleaner, you have to watch and be sure to use the older
> non-enviro friendly stuff. Newer enviro friendly brake cleaner (perc based)
> is not very combustible, and low volatility... in the cold, you get almost
> no evaporation, and nothing to help start the car.
> 
> Thank my Grandad for the camp stove trick.  That's how they used to get
> model T's and early tractors going in winter.  That or use the bottom four
> inches of a metal five gallon can as a burner, and get a nice pile of
> briquettes going.  slide that under the car to barbie the engine up nice and
> toasty, then it starts as if it were summer.  Not the greatest for the oil I
> would imagine.
> -James
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Val Christian [mailto:val at swamps.roc.ny.us]
> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:13 AM
> To: James Hansen; vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] Starting a cccccold Rabbit ---( Mike Smith Bondo
> 
> 
> James,
> 
> With all due respect, I'm going to disagree with you just a little (grin).
> When it's -40F, a hairdryer is useless.  Too much volume of air, and too
> little delta T.  Take the air filter off, and use a propane torch.  Get
> the piezo spark ignition type, it's more flexible in this kind of situation.
> Really, the hairdryer is relatively useless at -40F and on an older
> hairdryer
> the bearings might protest.  The temperature gain on it will get you to
> 20F or perhaps even 50F temps, but not the warmth you really want.
> An industrial "heat gun" with an adjustable aperture might be fine though.
> 
> On the number of GPs, I also disagree.  Yep, all four is ideal, but I
> had a '79 Rabbit where #2 broke off, and remained out of service for
> well over 100Kmiles, and for several winters, including ones where I
> regularily started the car at -20F (-30C).  Without ether.  When it
> was cold I always knew that I only had three glowplugs, but the car
> was still a reliable starter.  I do, however, agree that if one is out,
> and you can replace it, do so.  But if you're going to risk damaging
> the GP so that it breaches the cylinder head (a partial removal, unsealing
> the cylinder), then I would just leave it.  Get it out when you have to
> pull the cyl head.  What I'm saying is trade between the risk of
> having to pull the cylinder head, vs. the risk of being down one
> glow plug all the time.
> 
> Oh, the risk of running with three with three glowplugs is that if you
> loose one, and it's cold (below about 30F) outside, you may not get the
> car started.  Below about 10F it's nearly impossible to get a Rabbit
> diesel started with only two plugs working.  Been there.
> 
> On the topic of ether.  I've used it, and I gneerally recommend against
> it.  Too many instances of damage.  If you do decide to use ether,
> the safest way is to pull the filter.  Two people, one cranking, and
> the other gives a shot of ether, after the engine is up to cranking
> speed.  I have heard of (not first hand knowledge) of a local who
> totally damaged a starter with ether.  Apparently the engine fired
> backwards, or something, and the starter housing cracked, the ring
> gear broke, and it was a thousand dollar mess.  His car was a relatively
> new car.
> 
> I can share a first hand experience...the first time I had a GP fuse go,
> it was the blizzard of '77 in WNY.  I stranded, and the temps were in
> the 0F region.  A light shot of ether got the car going.  Since then,
> I carried a phillips head screwdriver in the car (for servicing or
> circumventing the glowplug fuse block on the firewall).
> 
> A final note on ether...I don't keep it anymore.  It's too volatile,
> and the cans seem to empty without use.  In the garage I have brake
> cleaner, and for the situations where I would have used ether, I now
> use brake cleaner.  Then again, I'm not trying to light up equipment
> at -40F.
> 
> As for a camp stove, I agree with James.  Just not when someone has added
> gasoline to their fuel, though.  The camp stove trick works on airplanes
> pretty well, also.  But the oil is usually thicker, and at cold (below
> -20F) temps, it's better to drain the oil.  Reheat it and pour it in prior
> to engine start.  An old metal gas can works well, because you can heat
> the oil right in it.
> 
> The cold temps we've all been dealing with will soon be behind us, and
> we'll be chasing some other problem, like water leaks.
> 
> Val
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > The very biggest deal for Mike is to get that one glow plug that is dead
> and
> > stuck replaced.  The smoke will be a tiny fraction of what it is now.
> When
> > you crank and crank, it loads up with fuel, then you burn it off sort of,
> > and resultant cloud fills the air.
> > I can't say enough how important it is to have all four gp's running.
> >
> > And Mike, if you are on three gp's, and the temp drops while at work,
> defeat
> > the plugs and use ether rather than running the battery down.  Teeny tiny
> > shot is all it takes. Don't blow the damn thing up, but it will start and
> if
> > you only use a tiny bit, there is absolutely no harm at all. I've used
> > everything from a camp stove to a hair dryer to start these cars in -40
> and
> > worse.    Chance of a deere or dog pulling the cord off the block heater
> > connection is directly proportional to decrease in temperature.  camp
> stove
> > on the pan for fifteen minutes with the hood closed, stuff a hair dryer
> into
> > the intake, and start the car at any temp with any oil. :-)
> >
> > -James
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com [mailto:vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com]On
> > Behalf Of LBaird119 at aol.com
> > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:08 PM
> > To: vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> > Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] Starting a cccccold Rabbit ---( Mike Smith Bondo
> > Golfy).
> >
> >
> > There is LOTS and LOTS of smoke on start up.  Much worse than my old 88
> > Jetta TD.  Smoke is mostly blue.  I am presuming bad rings?  Possibly
> > valves?
> >
> >   Depends.  Smell of that smoke will tell you more than the color.  Could
> > be valve stem seals, rings or injectors.  If it smells like burned oil,
> then
> > you eliminate injectors.  If it smells like being behind a truck
> > decelerating
> >
> > down a hill, then it's probably injectors.
> >
> > >
> > > Also, I note that when I am accelerating down the highway and reach near
> > > maximum revs in any gears, the car seems to "bog down" and lose quite a
> > bit
> > > of power.
> >
> >    Injectors, timing, dirty air or fuel filter or clogged exhaust.  I lean
> > toward
> > exhaust or injectors first, assuming you've probably done new fuel and
> > air filters.
> >      Loren
> 
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