[Vwdiesel] negative aspects of burning water

[James Hansen]

Thanks Ron.
I understand your point of view.  I'm just a really practical person, 
and think that available technology perfected is still better than a 
bird in the bush.  Take these cars that get 100mpg or so for instance. 
A small similar gas car gets 40mpg.  A small similar old school diesel 
gets 50-60. A similar car with a diesel with a high degree of perfection 
gets 100ish mpg.  it's going to be a long way off before we get any 
where near that level with a hybrid, yet it seems that fashion and 
enviro-weinerism would have us cast off the perfected things for a big 
box of tech that is not any where near perfected, all in the name of, as 
Chris puts it, beaureaucracy, and marketing idiocy, which is right on 
target as usual.

It's like we can't have the best cars, because we have these new POS to 
shake down ultimately on our nickel for some undefined lofty purpose 
because some ad man somewhere tells us to.

I'm particularly sensitive to this, as being a farmer, these days, there 
is little in the way of field testing R&D in machinery design, it's all 
cad simulations, and targets of design concept to marketable good in a 
year that is in fashion. It sucks ass to have the latest and greatest 
thing, as it's usually a POS until the bugs get worked out... for 
example EVERY new grain harvesting combine that has been released in the 
last fifteen years has sucked the first model year, and usually for a 
few years thereafter kept a pretty high rate of vacuum as well.
I can't imagine the auto industry being any different... people buy 
whatever the advertisers tell them to regardless of quality, necessity, 
functionality, or practicality... they buy it because they are told to.

For instance Kenworth uses the words: " The new Kenworth T270 hybrid 
vehicle offers the benefits of reduced fuel use as well as the civic 
impact of responsible environmental practices"

implying of course, that not doing so is irresponsible, and ignoring the 
fact that heavy truck engines are years behind in technology, mostly 
from having to focus on smog related emissions targets, not overall fuel 
usage.  Were the epa to pull it's head from where it's been allthese 
years, some real effective environmental goals could be attained, not 
just nitrogen emissions to prevent smog in LA.

I can see the big truck industry going to diesel electric, but still 
have reservations about replacing a fairly simple system with one that 
is vastly more comnplex without a damn good reason.  Mileage results in 
real world gas hybrids do not show returns to justify the added 
complexity and service costs for the average owner.  As I wrote earlier, 
a diesel hybrid in a small car would have to consistently be over 100mpg 
to justify the added costs of manufacturing complexity and ownership, 
otherwise it just isn't justifiable to own, unless you homebrew one like 
yourself.

You write that your design netted 30% with regenerative braking- that's 
comparing the same unit with regenerative braking and without?  That's 
pretty good numbers Ron.

-james

Chris Geiser wrote:
> I looked at the announcement for that truck - seems like a very well thought
> out and sensible step in the right direction, unlike the gas / electric
> hybrid cars that make no sense.  This is undoubtedly because the truck is
> directed at business, where economics and practicality are a driving force,
> unlike the passenger car market where bureaucracy and marketing idiocy
> appear to be the driving force...
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com [mailto:vwdiesel-bounces at vwfans.com] On
> Behalf Of Ron Schroeder
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 8:00 AM
> To: vwdiesel at vwfans.com
> Subject: Re: [Vwdiesel] negative aspects of burning water
> 
> Hi James,
> 
> While the diesel isn't as bad to start with, a diesel will still benefit 
> from a hybrid drivetrain.  The diesel does have a wider range of outputs 
> where the Base Specific Fuel Consumption is still high but the farther away 
> from the sweet spot, the worse the fuel consumption gets, just like in a gas
> 
> engine, just not as bad.  Even if a diesel kept the same efficiency over 
> it's entire power range, a hybrid would still benefit from the fuel savings 
> of regenerative braking in stop and go driving and if the battery was big 
> enough it could get some of it's range from outside electric sources.
> 
> My diesel/electric hybrid gained about 30% in town with regenerative 
> braking.
> 
> Kenworth has just announced a hybrid diesel electric Class 6 truck.  It's 
> the T270.
> 
> Ron Schroeder
> WD8CDH
> 
> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 23:55:16 -0600
>> From: James Hansen <jhsg at sasktel.net>
>>
>> Ron S, in a diesel elecric hybrid, would not the returns be too small to
>> justify the added costs?
>> A diesel can be VERY efficient, but wouldn't the electrical losses add
>> up faster than the mechanical losses in a straight mechanical drive
>> diesel?   I know there is a net benefit in a gasser, mostly because the
>> gasser is inherently shitty in terms of efficiency to start with.
>> -james
>> **** 
> 
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