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Quattro Digest V2 #10
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Quattro Digest Thursday, 2 March 1995 Volume 02 : Number 010
In this issue:
Re: REMINDER! You MUST cc the list in your replies!
Re: Warning about dangerous automotive substance!
It's Grrrrrrreen!
Re: Scalloped tires?!? and parts appetite...
Oxygen sensors
How much is a used S4 turbo worth?
RE: It's Grrrrrrreen!
Re: It's Grrrrrrreen!
O2 Sensors
Re: How much is a used S4 turbo worth?
The fate of the turbowagon.
archives
See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the quattro
or quattro-digest mailing lists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: phile@stpaul.gov (Philip J Ethier)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:30:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: REMINDER! You MUST cc the list in your replies!
Zafer writes >
> Even with the new list, I still continue to get "quattro-owner"
> as the sender and have NO way of identifying the original sender. I
> thought we would be able to do that with the new setup. There isn't
> an "Originally-From:" tag in the mail header either.
There is in mine.
> The only difference
> I see is that the "Reply-To:" is no longer set to the list. Is there
> anything you can do about this? Thanks in advance.
In my mailer, ELM, I can push the "h" button for full headers. I get lots
of info including:
"From: zm@mhcnet.att.com (Zafer Mehmood [209])"
I suggest you post what mailer you use, and someone who knows it will tell
you the command to show full headers.
phil.ethier@stpaul.gov
------------------------------
From: "Bill Holecek" <bholecek@dulsgi.dul.epa.gov>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:50:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Warning about dangerous automotive substance!
Being from Duluth, MN, I am very familiar with the dangers of dhmo. But
remember that without dhmo we wouldn't be able to keep our Audi's clean! ;) I
have experienced problems, during the winter months, opening the doors on my
Quattro after using dhmo as a cleaning agent. But with proper precautions we
can coexist with dhmo for many more years to come.
Thanks, for posting the address. :)
Bill Holecek
Computer Sciences Corporation
bholecek@dulsgi.dul.epa.gov
------------------------------
From: steveb@newkla.kla.com (Steven Buchholz)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 11:53:29 PST
Subject: It's Grrrrrrreen!
It looks like I've got to track down a leak somewhere in the hydraulic system
on the urQ. My system is still filled with ATF while the '88 uses the green
stuff. In honor of St Patrick's Day, should I replace the ATF with the green
stuff while I'm looking for the leak? Since Dan Bocek didn't know what I was
talking about when I told him that I had a red puddle under the car I assume
that his car's got the new stuff in it. Am I the only ATF guy around? Any
possible problems with changing over? Would changing over reduce the possi-
bilities of problems in the future? (..... YEAH ... I know!)
Steve Buchholz
s_buchho@kla.com
------------------------------
From: adams@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 14:58:51 EST
Subject: Re: Scalloped tires?!? and parts appetite...
> > At the 15K service they balanced and rotated the tires. At this
> > >> time we noticed a vibration and annoying noise. The tires make a high
> > >> pitched wakawakawaka sound at highway speeds (at least that is were it
is
> > >> noticed). I also pay close attention to tire pressure and there are no
> > >> syptoms of alignment or balance problems.
> >
> > Sounds like they blew the balance...
> >
> > Also sounds like you've got a helluva symptom, too.
> >
> > Are we forgetting that we learned back in our early days of car addiction
> > that some cars are real senstitive to balance and that can cause scalloping
> > of the tires...even when you don't usually feel much vibration...
I should have been more clear in my description. The vibration we
experience is a light seat of the pants vibration, that can be felt
throughout the car and not through the steering wheel. The noise is
far more annoying and than the vibration, especially on a car this new.
I was just amazed that Chris, the original poster, had experienced a
problem after the 15k service in the same area that we have. I also
noticed that at the 7.5k service the wear in the tires was negligible.
But prior to the 15K the wear difference (front to back) was far more
noticeable. But I think we will get the 22.5k service tomorrow, so
maybe I'll have something else to comment on then.
regards,
Daniel Adams
------------------------------
From: John Greenstreet <jgreenst@motown.ge.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 16:30:51 -0500
Subject: Oxygen sensors
> From quattro-owner@swiss.ans.net Fri Feb 24 13:19:36 1995
> Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:36:45 -0700
> To: quattro@swiss.ans.net
> From: bbell@csn.net (Bruce Bell)
>
> >Andrew, O2 (Oxygen) sensor senses the amount of oxygen in your exhaust
> >gases....
>
> 10 or so years ago I had a conversation with a Shell engineer about O2
> sensors. He claimed "O2" is a misnomer because they do not actually measure
> oxygen directly. Claim is some other by products of combustion are measured,
> cant remember which he said, perhaps hydrocarbons. Any one else know of
> this? I don't want to create confusion, but I am curious.
>
No, the oxygen sensor uses a special ceramic material which generates
a voltage up to one volt when oxygen is present. Contrary to what many
believe, the amount of O2 in the exhaust increases as the mixture
gets richer (lambda less than one), not as it gets leaner (lambda greater
than one). Lambda represents the excess-air ratio and is equal to
one when the mixture is stoichiometric.
The voltage output of the sensor is therefore low for lambda greater
then one (lean), and then increases rapidly when lambda decreases
from 1 to .995 or so, and then stays close to one volt for successively
richer mixtures.
Maybe the engineer meant that pollution is not measured directly. It
is true that pollution is lowest right where the O2 sensor voltage knee
is, at least when the exhaust is piped through a 3-way cat.
Older cars used exhaust reactors and a richer mixture to reduce
pollutants, but this method traded higher CO and HC in order to
lower NOx emissions. Also, specific fuel consumption was higher
than when tuned for the 3-way cat. I guess that's why pollution
controls got such a bad rap at first.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
John Greenstreet, Senior Engineer (jgreenst@motown.ge.com)
Martin Marietta Government Electronic Systems Moorestown NJ 08057
WPI Class of '75, Temple Class of '94
My new car history:
1975 1978 1982 1986 1989 1992 1995
VW -> Audi -> Audi -> Mercedes -> Mercedes -> Audi -> Mercedes
Scirocco Fox GTI 4000S 190E 2.3 190E 2.6 100CS S320
POSSLQ's* new car history:
1978 1981 1985 1988 1990 1993
Triumph -> Toyota -> Toyota -> VW -> Audi -> Audi
Spitfire Tercel Corolla Jetta GL 80 90S
*POSSLQ = Person of Opposite Sex Sharing Living Quarters
Note: All Audis and Mercedes above were sold to friends or family.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: steveb@newkla.kla.com (Steven Buchholz)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:37:15 PST
Subject: How much is a used S4 turbo worth?
I'm looking into the purchase of a turbo from an S4. Can anyone give
me ballpark prices for new and/or ~10K miles of use?
TIA!
Steve Buchholz
s_buchho@kla.com
------------------------------
From: Dave Lawson <dlawson@ball.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Mar 95 16:33:00 mst
Subject: RE: It's Grrrrrrreen!
Steve,
>It looks like I've got to track down a leak somewhere in the hydraulic
system
>on the urQ. My system is still filled with ATF while the '88 uses the
green
>stuff. In honor of St Patrick's Day, should I replace the ATF with the
green
>stuff while I'm looking for the leak? Since Dan Bocek didn't know what I
was
>talking about when I told him that I had a red puddle under the car I
assume
>that his car's got the new stuff in it. Am I the only ATF guy around? Any
>possible problems with changing over? Would changing over reduce the
possi-
>bilities of problems in the future? (..... YEAH ... I know!)
You are not the only ATF guy around Steve, it is the correct fluid for the
urQs as described in the owners manual. Even though St. Patricks day is
approaching, stay away from the green stuff.
Where is the leak at?
-
Dave Lawson dlawson@ball.com
------------------------------
From: Dan Bocek <dan@di.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:37:27 -0800
Subject: Re: It's Grrrrrrreen!
> It looks like I've got to track down a leak somewhere in the hydraulic system
> on the urQ. My system is still filled with ATF while the '88 uses the green
> stuff. In honor of St Patrick's Day, should I replace the ATF with the green
> stuff while I'm looking for the leak? Since Dan Bocek didn't know what I was
> talking about when I told him that I had a red puddle under the car I assume
> that his car's got the new stuff in it. Am I the only ATF guy around? Any
> possible problems with changing over? Would changing over reduce the possi-
> bilities of problems in the future? (..... YEAH ... I know!)
Hmmmm, I don't remember you ever asking me about this, but I might have an
answer for you. The red stuff is Dexron II ATF, the recomended power
steering fluid for the TQC. The green stuff is Pentosin, the stuff that
Audi recomendeds for the later cars. If I were you, I wouldn't go around
mixing the two. Stick with the red, and avoid seal damage.
Dan Bocek
dan@di.com
------------------------------
From: rdh@sli.com (Robert D. Houk)
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 95 18:23:34 EST
Subject: O2 Sensors
Regarding our previous thread on O2 sensors, and building your own
"bargraph" display of mixture, and what not: here is some general
background info.
Have fun...
-RDH
========================================================================
Excerpted from the Bosch "Mechanical Gasoline Fuel-Injected System with
Lambda Closed-Loop Control" K-Jetronic Technical Instruction:
Lambda closed-loop control circuit
- ----------------------------------
By means of the Lambda closed-loop control, the air-fuel ratio can
be maintained precisely at Y=1.00. ["Y" == "Lambda"]
This control principle is based upon the measurement of the ex-
haust-gas oxygen by the Lambda sensor. The exhaust-gas oxygen is a
measure for the composition of the air-fuel mixture supplied to the
engine. The Lambda sensor acts as a probe in the exhaust pipe and
delivers the information as to whether the mixture is richer or leaner
than Y=1.00.
In case of a deviation from this Y=1.00 figure, the voltage of the
sensor output signal changes abruptly. This pronounced change is eval-
uated by the ECU which is provided with a closed-loop control circuit
for this purpose.
Tolerances and the ageing of the engine have no effect whatsoever.
At values above Y=1.00, move fuel is metered to the engine, and at
values below Y=1.00, less.
This continuous, almost lag-free adjustment of the air-fuel mix-
ture to Y=1.00, is one of the prerequisites for the efficient after-
treatment of the exhaust gases by the downstream catalytic converter.
The Lambda closed-loop control operates in a range between
Y=0.8...1.2, in which normal disturbances (such as the effects of
altitude) are compensated for by controlling Lambda to 1.00 with an
accuracy of +-1%.
Lambda sensor
- -------------
The Lambda sensor inputs a voltage signal to the ECU which repre-
sents the instantaneous composition of the air-fuel mixture.
The Lambda sensor is installed in the engine exhaust manifold at a
point which maintains the necessary temperature for the correct func-
tioning of the sensor over the complete operating range of the engine.
The sensor protrudes into the exhaust gas stream and is designed so
that the outer electrode is surrounded by exhaust gas, and the inner
electrode is connected to the atmospheric air.
Basically, the sensor is constructed from an element of special
ceramic, the surface of which is coated with microporous platinum
electrodes. The operation of the sensor is based upon the fact that
ceramic material is porous and permits diffusion of the oxygen present
in the air (solid electrolyte). At higher termperatures, it becomes
conductive, and if the oxygen concentration on one side of the elec-
trode is different to that on the other, then a voltage is generated
between the electrodes. In the area of stoichiometric air-fuel mixture
(Y=1.00), a jump takes place in the sensor voltage output curve. This
voltage represents the measured signal.
Voltage curve of the Lambda sensor at
an operating temperature of 600C.
0.6 0.8 1.0 1.2 1.4
=============v=============
| .
1000 | -------\ .
V | \ .
o | \ .
l 800 | | .
t | | .
a | \.
g 600 | |.
e | |.
| |.
400 | |.
(mv) | |.
| \
200 | .|
| .|
| .|
0 | . \-----------
| .
===========================
0.6 0.8 1.0 1.2 1.4
Excess-air factor
------------------------------
From: Dan Bocek <dan@di.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 15:40:06 -0800
Subject: Re: How much is a used S4 turbo worth?
> I'm looking into the purchase of a turbo from an S4. Can anyone give
> me ballpark prices for new and/or ~10K miles of use?
Ned's selling used S4's for between $400 to $800, depending on mileage.
Dan Bocek
dan@di.com
------------------------------
From: "Peter Fraser" <Peter_Fraser@macmail.lbl.gov>
Date: 2 Mar 1995 17:20:35 U
Subject: The fate of the turbowagon.
Memo from Peter Fraser Ext. 6517
OAA
Subject: The fate of the turbowagon... 3/2/95 5:11 PM
hey -
a while ago i asked a pal at audi about eliot's dealers's remarks on the future
of the turbo q wagon. he asked another contact in the company for us what the
real scoop is. here's the answer:
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
Peter, from my friend at legal:
The message is exactly correct. Eliot's dealer really knows his stuff.
The turbocharged 5 just won't pass the tougher emissions standards which
became effective in California for MY 1995, and go Federal for MY 1996,
and low volume makes it impractical to do the necessary engineering. So,
the S6 isn't offered at all in California (or Mass., which adopted the
same stds.) for MY 1995, and this is its last year. We have gotten AAG
to agree to keep producing 95s through December (you can designate a
vehicle as being of a particular model year if it's not built later than
that calendar year). There will be 300 S6 Wagons, of which almost all
are already allocated. Especially one in Cashmere Grey with Ecru trim.
We are trying to see if we can get any more.
-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
i guess i should let you know that my friend is a member of the list, but has
so far chosen to remain a lurker. perhaps we can make an arrangement to
pipeline these sorts of questions to him, like assign him a name and put it in
the subject line to get his attention (he, like me, gets tired of post after
post about license plate frames and thus doesn't read every post).
let's call him "Kyle"
- -- peter of lbl
peter_fraser@macmail.lbl.gov
------------------------------
From: CurtP@aol.com
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 20:35:40 -0500
Subject: archives
get 4141
------------------------------
End of Quattro Digest V2 #10
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