vr6 and the competition

[PDQSHIP@aol.com]

In a message dated 95-11-13 14:16:44 EST, you write:

>
>> ......  Let's not forget what the Vr6 six was designed for.....  To put a
>six
>> where a 4 normally resides, without having to change the front bay
>> design.....  For that goal, it accomplished well, for a 6, it's not an awe
>> inspiring engineering as a 3L 8 from BMW for instance..... 
>
>what's so great about BMW's 3 liter V8?  1/2 :)
>
>the only kool thing about it that i can think of is its low weight,
>but i think that audi's v8 is superior all around.  bmw's v8 has
>been unreliable, according to CAR, while audi's is bulletproof.
Driven both, eliot.......  The point may be the drivetrain as a whole, not
necessarily the motor only, but I would take either argument........  The
audi in automatic form is a dog, torque brake, it's ok, but comparing liter
to liter the bmw has a better first execution....  Not sure liter for liter
the "newer" audi8 engine compares well to the 4.0 liter of the bmw.....
 throw in the very smooth 5spd auto of even the 3liter, and the early audi v8
can hardly hold its own........  Put the (albeit a rarity, indeed) 5spd of
the audi v8 to the 6speed of the bmw, and again, the comparo goes easily to
bmw.......  Unreliable has not been a word that I've read about the bmw, and
well, um, you know, uh, well, the audis aren't exactly known for that r word
at all (won't say it too loud cuz my car is running great, now).  The fact
that bmw puts that 3.0 liter in the same bay as the 525, puts the engine
advantage to bmw in a big way........   You even make the same assumption,
that you must compare the 3. liter v8 to the audi v8........  Maybe, but in
the line-up, the 3 liter is available as an engine trim on cars that normally
takes a 6......  Audi and Vw decided that the 6 was the wave of the future,
and accomplished the execution of their 6's in certainly a novel way (and
lots of dohc stamps on a sohc engine, but hey), but it may also be the
limiting factor in chassis application........  When you are SSSSSQUEEEEZING
a 6 into an engine bay by design, I hardly think that a v8 will be developed
beyond a dedicated body styles, and that is a mistake........
>
>as for the vr6, one of its greatest strengths is also its greatest
>weakness.  the compact nature of everything means that cooling
>would be a problem if one wanted really high outputs.  recall
>that the vr6 started life as a 2.4 liter 24 valve and a 2.6 liter
>12 valve but had severe head cooling problems throughout.
don't forget emissions, and even in its current trim, ain't the greenest
thing going
>
>very late in its development it was a 18 valve 2.8 liter and right at the
>end the 3 valve head was ditched in favor of a 12 valve.  i think that's
>why its torque curve isn't as fat as the audi v6. 
>
>this leads me to think that the vr6 is a lot closer to the limits
>of its development potential than the audi v6.
agreed, the limit has been reach IMHO.......  Unless you go with
displacement, but then another argument arises, cuz you've hit 3.0 liters,
then see above
>
>but i am not in the least bit critical of the current vr6.  old timers
>will remember that i was singing its praises right from the day the
>corrado vr6 was launched.  just trying to be objective about the vr6 vs.
>v6 debate. 
Yes I remember the song, but the corrado HAD to have the 6 to narrowly
survive.....  Vw sent back a whole bunch of G60 to germany, cuz they couldn't
give 'em away here.....  Now that the vr6 stuffs the engine bay, the limit
has been reached on that car.....  And the current development of the vr6
stuff indicates that you aren't bumping too far into the 200hp mark with
it......  The 6.8 second 0-60 performance of the corrado will become more of
an easy target for those manufacturers more flexible........   Example:  325i
4door will (and that's 2.5 liter I-6) puts it in the same league as the
corrado, with little price advantage going to the corrado......  And handling
wise, the corrado comes up a little short........  Lots of front engine front
drive weight there......  So you have a 50/50 weight car with a smaller 6,
but bigger hp (classic design) that in 4 door form can at least equal the vw
(compare the coupe version of the 3, the corrado gets OLD)......  And it has
the flexibility to jump to 2.8 liters or more to make a hot motor, and the M3
with all it's techno junk raises the stakes even higher.......  The vr6 just
hasn't seen that potential, and per your argument, never will........   I
also drove a vr6 golf, too, and found little to get excited about, lots of
motor, but no refinement to it or the chassis it was stuffed in to........
>
>CAR magazine also has the vr6 in its list of top 10 engines... it's in the
>same company as the 911 boxer, various ferraris, the NSX.  not bad for a
>engine powering a $20K car.  no bmw engines in that list.

And on the top ten list it should belong.....  Cuz it saved a car company's
rear, another year of G60's and vw wouldn't survive.....  So, it belongs to
history as an engine that performed engineering precedence, but only given
the engineering limitations of the chassis for which it is designed........
 Time to get the fourth wheel back on the ground at VWOA

Scott