But isn't the max torque on the 20v turbo engines achieved with some sort of loading up of the engine to get it at 1950rpm? It sure doesn't feel like 227ft. lbs. at 1950 when I accelerate from a dead stop. - peter, peterhe@microsoft.com, issaquah, wa, usa That's what the throttle and clutch are for - it's all technique & practice. -glen