14", for my 4000q. There are a couple of options out there but nothing has panned out so far. Looking to spend about $100 or less :) I prefer steel, though they seem harder to find than the 5000 alloys. -- Dan Simoes dans@ans.net ANS http://coimbra.ans.net/dans.html 100 Clearbrook Road (914) 789-5378 (voice) Elmsford, NY 10523 (914) 789-5310 (fax)