Re: diffy q's

[QSHIPQ@aol.com]

In a message dated 97-01-13 02:11:26 EST, you write:

<< > Ok, but one the most tweeked of Urq's here in the states didn't 
 > catch the M3 at the track here, rain or dry.....  M3 is not a 323 or a 
 > 328.....
 
 I find that difficult to believe. Not that I don't believe you. It's just
I'm very
 surprised. BTW what are we really comparing here. If you want a real
 comparison of the quattro advantage surely you have to compare 
 basically identical vehicles one with quattro and one without. Just as
 Audi did when it was first developing the urQ. I will post the article about
 this tomorrow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
$ for what you get, is how I compare them, racing venue the M3 is exactly the
A4q counterpart, there the a4 does circles around the M3, NOT so in the Real
world, but there we have to compare to other cars?  Not sure I follow
this.....   I would even take the lowly 328i two door vs the A4q for a more
apples to apples....  Drive a 951, an RX7...  Weight, COG, Brakes, balance,
LSD rwd are all tough to beat without resorting to the hihp equation in a
stock car....  It' s just not there.....  Let me restate that, It's Not
there...  Believe it or not....  I urge you to drive these cars...  50/50
weight does wonders for offsetting the q advantage, so does good brakes....
 Late braking means faster speed into the corner, offsetting your "q
advantage" out, combine that with the 50/50 weight at the turn, and the q
advantage becomes null and void....  Be careful on addressing q's in a
comparo....  awd with mediocre brakes, bad balance, a torsen, an underpowered
motor and more weight, is a BIG differential to overcome, wet or dry.......
 Stock to stock the q is not there.... Hi Hp it is, exactly my argument,
always has been, hasn't changed in my 3+ years here....
 
 >1) q's, all of them, are LATE brake, turn hard (aim before apex)
 >accelerate out, by defintion an UNDERSTEER advantage, totally 
 > contradicting your "early" turn in argument.....  That statement is just
 > plain incorrect when performance driving a q, btdt, and it's
 > documented, read the q racer books, Buffums would help you, given
 > the year of your car (non torsen)...  
 
 Yes, thats true however I didn't actually say that I turn in early, instead
I
 said I could apply more power earlier in the corner, cause the AWD
 provides more traction under the side loading.
>>>  Not what you said, but what you meant, still I disagree with the
statement when applied to a balanced LSD rwd car....  remember, the best you
have in a non torsen car is 2wd, 1 front 1 rear (diffs open), and I would
argue, weight balance to the rear, so that front one prolly has less traction
than you propose, and understeer, and in stock trim, no oversteer at all....
 What is the difference with a LSD rwd?   2 wheels driving 50/50 weight,
later braking, power on oversteer....  Starting to get the pix....
 

 Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be saying that on a race track
 with a nice smooth, grippy, dry surface and comparitively low HP cars
 (<250HP) then AWD is not an advantage. Yes, thats prob true. Where a
 well setup RWD car doesn't have enough hp to loose traction severly
 under cornering conditions (particularly on a race track) the AWD system
 prob doesn't add much to the equation. ie If the car out handles it's
 power capabilities then AWD is just unnecessary.
>>> Well put, thank you, EXACTLY.... Until you reach that level, awd is just
weight, which raises the hp level another notch...  And I won't agree on the
"dry, smoothy, grippy" only thing either.... 
 
 >However I think this is a fairly isolated environment. I still believe the
 >advantage and rewards that the quattro system provides on the average
 >road surface for street vehicles is pretty significant. And this is where
 >most stock quattros live is it not?
>>>>  Not isolated, reality.....  and I just can't take this bungee jump with
you here, I think real world is especially where the others shine.....  I
propose what you are experiencing is what I wrote to Mr. Mardkins, and I
quote:"What you do feel, IMO, is that the limit is raised as far as the
effortless driving threshold, and for that, I would agree again, to a point."

 
> I speak only from my experience, particularly with my urQ. I paid
 >$23,000AUS and for that money there is nothing that comes near it. 

>>>>>OK, not sure the exchange there, but my Urq needs a lot of work to play
in the big leagues, and I have 2 already playing there, I assure you.....

Scott