Re: Cool aids

[hsapir <hsapir@multiverse.com>]

Well. I will say that my summer wheels are indeed my winter wheels as well. Tires
too in fact. I have never found a good reason to use snows on my Torsen car or Gen
I cars. This is in Cleveland where we get up to 3 ft per day during the worst of
winter. Also, Torsen is not the beast it's made out to be. I admit it gets funny
under super hard cornering (which I tend to engage in) but not unmanageably so.

QSHIPQ wrote:

> Finally got caught up to the traffic, just in time to head off to Steamboat
> tomorrow.  Thoroughly enjoying the discussion Matt brought up regarding the
> advantages (implied, claimed and tested) of the quattro drivetrain.  Given my
> posts in the archives on this exact subject, a heretical brave soul, is still
> that.  And Matt's points are well taken.
>
> AWD has advantages, but how high is it?  Well, one could argue that 70+% of
> 'quattro' owners use the summer wheels as winter wheels.  So that BMW with
> Blizzacks or Hakas, just might even have the edge in the nasty stuff.
> Traction control and smart ecu's and tires have really given 'quattro' a run
> for the money.  And the tests seem to prove this out.  Apples to apples, the
> gains are minimal, if a bunch of road test guys can only eek a 1/10th or 2 out
> of the quattro over fwd, that should tell us all that maybe quattro might be a
> neat toy, but in torsen iteration, maybe the marketing advantages outweigh the
> real.  Audi is targeting the 7/10ths market with torsen, not the enthusiast.
> Does it work?  Sure, at 7/10ths, where 95% of the drivers "play".
>
> However, that last 2-3/10ths, the torsen is a beast few want to tame.  BTDT on
> just about every torsen chassis audi made (save Dave E's RS2, but been
> promised).  This is not just a wet/slick environment problem, this is a
> control problem at the limit.  And not a comforting one.  Coming from a
> ProRally background, I enjoy driving q's hard, on the track, street, and
> snow/ice.  The torsen has bitten my butt more times than ANY other setup, the
> VC cars included.  VC goes to a set split when engaged, that IMO, beats a
> hunting Torsen any day.  And hunt they do.
>
> I am trying to find some of the offline discussions that a couple of us had
> regarding the torsen and why.  If I can find them, will post them up.  But
> bottom line is this:  you better be a really good driver to play beyond
> 7/10ths, cuz 11/10ths comes with little forwarning, and there, you aren't
> driving with skill, only instinct.  And lucifer trying to kick you off the log
> with a hunting differential.  The weight shift of the bigger cars tends to
> exaggerate the hunt, but the small cars have it too.  A small change in input
> on the gas or the brakes, has an effect on the torsen split.  Not a great
> problem at 7/10ths, a major problem beyond that.  My first experience with it
> btw, was with a snow covered road, haka 10's, 70mph and a brand new torsen 88
> 90q (sideways, with a long slide to recovery).
>
> Several have pointed out the advantage of awd.  It has them.  I might point
> out Dave E, that Walter didn't run torsens.  He ran fixed diff cars in
> Rallyes.  The TC A4 had a neat little knobben for diff split.  All the race
> cars of the 80's used a fixed split.  And with awd, torsen isn't in the racing
> program (center diff).  So, is it good for the street, probably.  Is it better
> than the Gen I?  For 7/10ths driving and 95% of the Audi market, yup.  For
> those that drive beyond that market?  I'll take Gen I anyday.  Those running
> Torsens?  Get a switch to control the rear locker beyond the 15mph, that at
> least can help.
>
> Ice is ice, studs are studs.  I don't see the argument there.  Learn the limit
> folks, it should become instinct, not a lesson.  Steamboat is THE spot to do
> this, and fun to boot.  Once a year driving at the limit and harmlessly
> beyond, helps instinct.  And those of you that haven't yet been bitten by the
> Torsen lucifer, will.  And when you do, you want instinct on your side.
>
> My report of Steamboat will follow next week.
>
> Scott Justusson
> QSHIPQ@aol.com
> '87 5ktqwRS2
> '86 5ktqw
> '84 Urq