Re: Corporate Philosophy

[QSHIPQ <QSHIPQ@aol.com>]

In a message dated 98-04-03 03:55:04 EST, you write:

<< sounds like the audi a8 tested in the usa was a little different than the
one
 >tested by the euro mags imho...
 Fine, it was compared to exactly the same tire wheel combo here in the
states.  Up one ante, up them all.  My point all along.  

 >so c&d rated the a8 3rd?  perhaps you could explain how car magazine rated
the
 >a8 ahead of the (revised) 7-series (hardly a 7 y.o. chassis, given the
recent
 >revision)?  you pays your money, and takes your test results.  perhaps the
c&d
 >test was better, fairer, more akin to your way of thinking.  fine.  but i
don't
 >wear this "state of the union" stuff, based on one test.  you *do* have a
point
 >in that the a8 tested could well be different from the euro version.  that
has
 >a "sport" option pack, as well as the s8 car.  what is available in the usa?
 >is the sport pack?  what spring/wheel/tyre options are there?
16's vs 16's.  You go 17's, then you have to give the rest of the field the
same thing.  Change of tires, at least here in the US, would mean a change in
suspension.  S8 has different suspension to go with those 18's.  Here in the
states we don't enjoy the fine roads found elsewhere.  I might also point out
that putting 17 and 18 inch wheels on an audi kinda defeats the whole "snow"
advantage most talk of here.  So, back to two sets of wheels.  If the
suspension was revised for running the big wheels, how far off is the handling
going to be with snows on the car of a smaller size.  What about the rotors,
will they clear? Life isn't so simple on this argument.
 
> imho, the a8 is a fine machine.  albeit 4 years old now, and 2 years from a
new
 >model.  it still looks good (the 7-series is too long and looks very dated
>compared to the new 3/5 series), with a fine engine, and still has leading
edge
> technology as a differentiator.  would i buy one?  nope.  but others are
with
> sales increasing strongly last year.  the one comment which comes through in
 >all tests is that the ride quality is poot.  btw, wrt the lexus, i've just
read
 >an aussi test which panned the lexus at speeds above 200 km/hr ("the ls400
is a
> real handful at high speed...a disconcerting swaying motion above 220
> km/hr..unpleasant enough to provoke sweaty palms and a dry mouth")
I'm not a fan of the Lexus either, let me be clear on that.  However, in the
price and performance market where it competes, it holds it's own.  The most
stable car at speed I've driven are Mercs and Jags.  However, that subjective
rating doesn't carry much weight in a country where that advantage lands you
in jail.
 
 >btw, this old list cremudgeon rode in an s8 with herr rohrl as pilot for
> several hot laps of a circuit.  18" wheels with sp8000's (certainly tyres
that
> i rate).  car was surperb.  no unnecessary lurches, consistant times, very
good
> braking.  certainly not bad for a big luxo-sports barge (auto).  when i got
out
> of the car, 20 other people got their hot laps in.  at the end of it, i made
a
> point of checking out the car.  it was hot of course, but the brakes weren't
> smoking, there were no fumes coming off it.  just as you'd expect from a
 >well-engineered performance machine.  at the end of the day, audi sold 2
s8's
> to people who had been there...
Ok, let's understand what the difference between the bread and butter, and the
creme.  Understand, that single chassis goes fwd, awd, and S, all with
different toys.  Right now, BMW goes 740, no M, no 728.  And it takes 2 of the
three audi cremes.  I sure hope for audis sake the M boys don't give the S8 a
run.  That old steel chassis and all....
 
> there was no "limit", (construed as a tenuous link between the tarmac and
the
 >scenery).  and herr rohrl was trying (helped by a little bet about my ur-q
 >being faster).  no torsen spider bite either though.  maybe we don't get
those
 >sorts of spiders here in new zealand?
No need to bring that up.  Betcha you think twice about handing the keys to
your toys over without the spider warning after reading the numbers I sent
you.  Bet also that the Herr Docktor could also make a yugo pass a ferrari.  
 
> to you scott, 50:50 weight distribution is the ultimate.  well if it is,
you're
 >driving the wrong type of car.  bmw is it.  not porsche, not audi, not
anything
> else.  maybe some ferrari as well.  so what's your point (other than you're
> driving the wrong car?).  leave awd for the snow.  bye bye quattro, wrx, evo
> iv.  they don't have 50:50 weight distribution.  they can't compete.  to me,
> 50:50 weight distribution is worth sweet fa.  give me a car that can respond
to
> my vagaries as a driver, to throttle lift mid corner, to wet roads, to late
> corner entry, then you're talking my language.  the rest is car test fodder,
> spec sheet bs...
Nope, missed the point.  A 50/50 weight distribution makes for a better
baseline.  That's a physics argument.  Why do you think 90 percent of all
audis running don't put the battery under the hood?  Room?  Price?  Plenty of
performance machines run uneven weight distribution.  However, you will also
find that those that do have it, tend to get great handling reviews.  A trend.
Given a torsen center audi can U-O-U in the same turn, I'm not sure I agree
with your assessment above.  Predictability is key.  Can it be done without
the "balance" sure.  But I give more credit to BMW for the retentiveness to
this mission than you.  To be within 8lbs on a 4260lb sedan, means that every
single spec'd toy, option, and structure, has a weight spec attached, right
down to switch gear.  That's a company that has a solid reputation of
homework. Put 500lb in front of a 4000lb car, and I hear tire complaints?  I'm
not surprised at all, are you?  Given the clean slate and aluminum, and Audi
still manages a best of 60/40?  What's with that?  Maybe some thought should
be given to ditching awd, or at least fwd, in favour of the rwd the two
winners used.  Would help the weight problem too.  
 
 >btw, different cars, with different drive trains, require different things
out
> of their tyres.  reference the btcc and the different paths dunlop (a4
quattro)
 >and michelin (fwd) took in constructions and compounds.  very different.  so
 >tyres is not apples-to-apples, as you state, rather which tyres suit the car
 >for the manner it is intended to be used in.  it is an easy thing to do for
the
 >manufacturer to ship a car with uprated tyres and wheels for a test which
> majors on ciruit performance (i've just read a test of the new e46 328 where
 >the car was fitted with 18" optional wheels with sp9000's at 255/35, where
 >joe-blow is going to drive a machine with 16" 225/45's).  neeedless to say,
 >they loved it's handling.
  >>
Well you made my EXACT argument Dave.  Read the article.  There are not
surprises here, every single tire is not performance, and all were 16's.  So,
I don't go with that argument.  Would better tires have helped the audi, no
question.  Would better tires help the BMW and the Lexus?  Sure.  Same
argument.  Apples to apples compared and so documented.  Come on, the tire
thing is an excuse, not anything else.  It's an excuse for audi to address,
not me.  I don't think there is a 16in tire that would have helped that beast.
Why?  Cuz I drove one with 17's and found that it wasn't just tires.  Which
makes me think that the S8 has a totally different suspension.  As much as
your RS2 is an 80.  

Coulda been that BMW went over and put those Eagles on the A8 too, I suppose?
Think on that a minute.

Love to see the S8 make it to the states.  But it has to compete, and a reason
why a lot of euroblasters never made it here.  However, the bavaria boys seem
to get it done for many years here.  What's up coaches? 

Let's move this to Ingolstat and the decisions and moves they are making that
puts them midpack.  Is that because the US loves accords?  Well the 740 is
selling like hotcakes.  The Audis are selling A4's here.  A6 and A8's need
some serious incentives to get them to move. Come on, give this list something
to brag about, not pick apart a midpack review of the flagship.  No one on the
BMW list is complaining, and corporate is smiling all the way to the bank.
Audi had this in the bag, Dave.  They blew it, for WHATEVER reason.  Bottom
line, that's a coach problem, not the rivals.

Scott Justusson