Re: Learning takes comprehension

[Dave Eaton <dave.eaton@minedu.govt.nz>]

>In a message dated 98-05-05 18:35:16 EDT, Dave E write:
>
>>so far i have provided documentation of my own considerable efforts to
>>provoke my torsen audis into uncontrolled behaviour when cornering.  the 
>>spider bite (tm).  i have failed to do so.
>
>If you don't understand HOW a torsen bites, works, or doesn't, how can you
>make considerable efforts to provoke anything?  Jeff's point is that you don't
>get it, in concept.  So how can you?

and you, in your superior wisdom, can't tell me how to re-create the effect
either.  so, by your own definition, you don't get it either.  how can you?

> 
>>phil has done the same thing.  same result.

>See above

ditto.

> 
>>i am one of the very few on this list who has actually *owned* a generation
>>1 ur-quattro w/open centre (2 years) and a torsen ur-quattro (2 years).  i
>>have considerable 1st hand experience of these two cars and had my scariest
>>quattro moment with the open diff car.  so documented.  and noticed a
>>considerable improvement in the handling with the torsen.  certainly scott
>>and jeff have *never* even *driven* the ur-quattro with torsen, let alone the
>>rs2. despite this (learning disability alert), they refuse to even *consider*
>>that there might be other factors in the equation and other people are trying
>>to tell them. 
>>...

>Dave.  Owning cars does not change physics of the torsen, the concept (that
>you admitted) that a torsen can be fooled.  A torsen can be fooled based on
>slip angle and relative slip angle in a given chassis.  You can't change that
>by a nonevent argument, all due respect to your driving "efforts".  Nor does
>Carroll Smith address that anywhere in his book.  A torsen fooled is fooled.
>YOU can't predict what it can and can't do.  Why?  Cuz slip angle and relative
>slip angles are variables that aren't always controlled by driver input.    Be
>careful of your torsen facts, there is so little reference to torsens in
>racing, you hardly make any points there.

please explain why slip angles and relative slip angles *can't* be controlled
by driver input.  enquiring minds want to know.

i can't wait to explain to mickey shoemaker that he's not in control of his
slip angles...

> 
>>both jeff and scott have been unable to tell me, depiste all the retoric and
>> theory, *how* to produce said uncontrollable behaviour in my cars.

>Back to first grade again.  Go to your "efforts" to elicit bite.  How can you
>"effort" anything?  You admit you don't understand it, or know how to produce
>it.  Stop Dave, and enjoy your q's for what they are.  Pardon us for NOT
>enjoying them for what the absolute traction devices aren't.  What did you
>learn in all your efforts. NOTHING.  Not nonevents, not conceptualizing
>anything, not gaining insight by chocholeks statements about the device.  That
>is learning disabled, sir.
> 

and audi raced with the torsen.  mmmm...  who needs to go back to school? 
audi?

>>i have even researched their points (eg slip angle) and found that (no
>>surprise here), it is *not* as they suggest.

>NO.  You have made a very tunnel vision view and plagorized statements out of
>Carroll Smiths book.  You have taken his words, and conclude, that a torsen is
>doing the right things in a turn.  And yet you admit it can be fooled in a
>turn.  Which is it?  You can't have it both ways dave.  Sorry.  You have also
>not addressed a variable that Chocholek SPECIFIED, which is relative slip
>angle as fooling the torsen.  Your research is incomplete and without merit.  

no, i'm saying that *due to the properties of the tyres* (a factor you, in your
ignorance (sorry, tunnel vision) give no credence to, that slip angles to the
torsen make *no* difference, because the tyre supplies the *same* co-efficient
of friction over the range of slip angles (reference carrol smith).  if it is
supplying the *same* co-efficient of friction then it is *by definition* of
*no* importance to the torsen.  ipso facto.  you refuse to address this point,
so your research is incomplete and without merit. 

> 
> >learning disabled?  not from where i sit buddy.
>OK, Kazinski said he wasn't crazy either.  You don't understand Dave.  You
>don't understand chassis dynamics, torsens, or your own arguments.  So
>documented.  Yelling louder that you have addressed Everything, just makes
>some smile.  You missed the boat a long time ago.
> 

once again, you selectively retain elements of jeff's discussion.  chochocheck
(sp?) said he wasn't crazy about *any* limited slip device.  mmmmm....

>>but then, i'm not selling product to the list either; turbos, suspension or
>>brakes.

>Ah yes, just selling misinformation.  On a device that has some unfriendly
>dark sides.  Some hope that you might learn something about torsens, the same
>as turbos, suspension and brakes, clutches, fixes, diagnostics, formulas, and
>theory.  No one here sells torsens, and yet, BECAUSE of you, many have spent
>way too much time selling YOU on the concept of the device.  And you don't get
>it.  No big deal.  Just don't sell misinformation here Dave.  You are
>misinformed about torsens, and you have all the resources (for free) to BE
>informed.  That is learning disabled, a reading comprehension problem.  No big
>deal, you get an A for effort, and an F on the final.  About average, weighted
>50/50.  

ooohhhhhh, so good to have a teacher on the list.  no, actually, teachers don't
sell anything do they....

i've had a number of off-line discussions about the "data base" used here by
you to propogate your views.  most of it seems to come from your ability to
take some poor punters car with torsen, (not your own of course, because you
don't have torsen), and scare the poor bloke senseless but putting it backwards
through the scenery.  now, thats a pretty amazing skill.  in fact, if i try
hard enough, do you think i could do the same thing with a non-torsen car?

i guess when i take my car to the track (w/torsen), and beat most other people,
i'm just not trying hard enough to see the "dark side".  mind you, if i go off
backwards, i call that driver error.  maybe not where you come from...

mmmmm....

dave
'95 rs2
'90 ur-q