Braking d' q's - some answers

[QSHIPQ@aol.com]

>mmmm, there seems to be some difficulty in understanding what i am saying.
to
>recap.  imho:-
>1) the panic stop scenario should concern everyone.  this is why we should
pay
>attention to brake, tyre and shock absorber condition.  this has *nothing* to
>do with fade.  if you can bring on your abs, then you're doing ok.  want to
>push that point back a little, then check your shocks, your tyres, or both.

Not exactly true.  Fade plays as much a role as all your other variables here
in braking distance.  If you put agressive pads on a stock set of binders, you
can fade within one panic stop.  If you've been using your brakes for ANY
driving before that panic stop (the real world), fade becomes exponentially
more important, even in that single panic stop (SPS - Dave tm).  Again tyres
have nothing to do with brakes that are prone to fade, they just fade sooner.
Heat is the good and evil of every braking system.  You want enough heat to
get the highest friction between the pad and the rotor.  Too much, you can get
pad float, fade (due to heat soaking), rotor warping, bearing failure, and/or
pad breakdown.  

>2) fade is much less of a problem in *normal* use.  if it's a major problem
for
>you, upgrade your brakes.  moralistic tone about driving too fast for your
>equipment withheld.  fade was a big issue in my old s2.  brought the brakes
>back to spec, and moved the fade point further out.  to improve further, i'd
>need to have upgraded the suckers...

Not exacty true either.  We still differ on the importance of fade
characteristics, glad we ditched the driving too fast part.  If fade is a
problem, a couple of upgrades to the STOCK binders can help.  1)  Get cool air
TO the rotor/caliper.  A scoop is better than a duct, but either helps.  2)
Crossdrilling the rotors (downside is cracking of the chamfer holes) 3)
Plating the rotors to keep the rust from the surfaces of the rotor 4)
Slotting the rotor to keep the gasses created from the pad to rotor contact
from "floating" the pad 5)  Use better brake fluid (ATE super blue from BMW
dealer outperforms most high performance fluid btw) 6)  Use a more open
designed wheel, or one that actually draws air (bmw did this on the M5) 7)
modify the backing plates to allow more air to the rotor.  Be careful with
this one, those backing plates protect the ball joint and the abs sensor FROM
rotor heat  8)  Make sure that the caliper carrier bolts have little radial
play (these are not available as a separate part, you must buy the whole
carrier to get them, and usually for good reason, putting new bolts into old
carriers usually doesn't solve anything, btdt) 9)  Increase the amount of rear
brake bias.  

Dave, these are a few of the upgrades one can do with the stockers, without
'upgrading' any hardware components.  These address fade AND stopping
distance.  I find the importance of both to be at least equal.  Given a single
panic stop distance vs 15 feet longer with less fade, not sure many agree with
the absolute number you propose.  You don't think much of fade, then with your
two cars (and driving style), you may not need to.  But understand, both of
your cars address fade in the design of the braking system.  So, although you
don't put much *importance* on fade, audi does for you.  

>3) if you like beauty contests, upgrade your brakes.
>dave.

How bout those of us that want to upgrade our brakes for performance?  Very
few of us upgrading want to win beauty contests.  Big ass rotor faces can do
that all by themselves.  For beauty contests, you can get high heat caliper
paint from JCW in a plethora of colors.  

It's very clear what you are saying.  Just plenty of btdt experience here that
contradicts your *fade* thinking, and car engineers (audi included) that don't
agree with you either.  Unlike torsens, plenty of folks here have experienced
the exact lack of "bite" on this subject.

IMNSHO, any discounting of the importance of fade, is hardly good advice, nor
sound thinking on the subject of brakes, stock OR modified. 

HTH

Scott Justusson
QQHIPQ@aol.com