T*rsen education?

[QSHIPQ@aol.com]

>i'm *not* going to get drawn into this thread again, but scott's
>protestations of ignorance bring out the consultant in me ;-)

Most interesting statement coming from you Davey.  My ignorance is well
documented on this list for 5+ years.  The word "ditto" comes to mind, and
both my hands are on the wheel while turning.  We do have photos of Ed Kellock
trying your method however...
 
>completely falacious argument of course.  on the basis of the
>documentation on the race cars, we cannot say that a vc or a torsen was
>or wasn't ever used.  that appears to be difficult for you to accept.
>perhaps you should try and get used to it.

????  So, the racecar Engineering article was WRONG?  Are you sure you want to
take that stand Dave?  Appreciate the gratis consulting on this issue.  I'm
smiling at "ignorance" again...

>errr...  please explain how a vc can be be statically rear biased and
>*lock* rear bias.  enquiring minds want to know....

Dave, I'm starting to think there is a reason you have some difficult time
with this discussion.  You really must be kidding.  A torsen can be rear
biased and *lock* rear bias too.  I really don't think you need me to discuss
this in detail, do you (you being the selfproclaimed "consultant")?  I'm
smiling again.  And you want to discuss VC's and braking?

>wee scott, since you asked, and clearly are a self-professed torsen
>virgin; yes, there are 4 different *types* of torsen that i am aware
>off.  there are probably more.  claerly, this confuses you some.

No, what confuses me, is what that has to do with A) our audis, and B) the
bite phenomenon.  If these 4 types of gear-type limited slips were all put in
the center of the audis, which wouldn't give U-O-U in the audi if all used the
same BR.  Yes, you are correct, I'm getting confused.  And what is "the bias
ratio" you mentioned?  In which *type*?  I'm confused, cuz you don't
communicate clearly your point.  4 *types* of torque sensing diffs doesn't
necessarily mean anything.  And specifically NOTHING to the audi discussion.
Remember Tom Nas' quote refers to a TORSEN Differential, of which sir, there
is one.  The rest AREN'T *Torsen* differentials, they are gear jamming
frictional devices.  The statement doesn't read Torsen OR VC or Quaife or ...,
it reads Torsen.

>all these torsen types are torque sensing in operation and have
>different characteristics in operation, but all have a characteristic
>bias ratio (obviously).  remember when you said that the bias ratio was
>all that was important?  errr, nope.

Err, yup.  Remember what we are discussing here.  IF the BR is high enough,
and you put it on an audi chassis, you will get U-O-U in a turn, JUST like a
Torsen.  You are so far on a tangent Dave, it's getting funnier every time we
discuss it.  I've been laughing for a while now.  Mostly at myself and my
ignorance.

>i don't really want to commit the time and effort to be descriptive of
>the different torsens, to help ease your ignorance, as this has, in the
>past, been a complete waste of time.

And you're still with it.  Please be descriptive of the different torque
sensing differentials (and please be careful calling them all torsens, they
are NOT, a more appropriate description would be 4 dumb gear jamming
frictional devices).  You really don't have to do it for my benefit, my only
question is, out of the 4 which isn't fooled in a turn?  

>you could do some more homework i guess...

Sure.  And you could just help us a bit by explaining how a Torsen is also 3
other gear jamming frictional devices.  

>again no argument.  and when bintcliffe decided to use the torsen
>because it's better for a particular circuit?  2 seconds thought would
>reveal that this argument is a complete waste of time.  the fact is that
>we don't know, and probably never will.  what we *do* know is that phil
>said that the quattro a4 he looked at didn't have a centre diff (and no
>scott, that doesn't mean a locker).

Yes, Dave it does.  Why?  Cuz they both are by definition.  Yes you could
change the f/r split in either, but bottom line a locker and no center are the
same thing.  Audi did this in their rallye efforts too.  If you run the center
locked all the time, you don't need a center diff, or do you?  Totally
understand your above argument, now all you need is to find a circuit where a
T*rsen was used consistently.  I'm with you all the way.

>staying up nights recently, or just more talk? :-)

???  For "talk" to be effective, you have to understand what it is you are
trying to say and understand the concepts.  Then the big job is to communicate
that in a way that makes sense, and presents information the way you intended.
Right now, you are a little behind in the execution Dave.

>mmm, mccrae doesn't seem to have any trouble with spins either.  perhaps
>he should use a locker instead of those silly old active diffs.  you
>know, those new-fangled smart diffs that shift torque every which way
>depending upon available traction, and what they think the driver
>requires.  wonder how he handles all the u-o-u-o-u-o????

Whoa Dave.  What are the torque splits of those diffs.  Be careful again.  You
aren't understanding what a smart diff is.  Can an active diff be rear biased
ALL the time?  Sure it can.  So can ALL the others.  

>after all the locker is simple and stupid.  mmmmmm......

It's in great company.

>scott, since you want to be obtuse about this, the point is that just
>because it is good for a race-track *doesn't* mean that is is good for
>the street.  i wonder when audi will begin marketing crash boxes as a
>option for street a4's?  can't imagine why they would hold that
>technology back from us?  or that 2l gti motor of theirs.  i'd love to
>have access to a race-bread engine with no torque below 4k rpm and a
>red-line @8k.  or braking systems which use up all of the passenger
>foot-well.  need i go on?

I'm wondering about your obtusion myself.  Up till 1988 (coincidently the
introduction of the Torsen) we enjoyed EXACTLY the center diff that audi used
in racing.  Your jumping to crash boxes or BTCC rules of 2l motors is pretty
funny.  Wonder where your 6 speed came from?  I think my point is clear here.
Content ignoring your attempts at tangential arguments.


>scott, maybe you should talk to the roswell folks some more?  perhaps
>you could also try to get *any* information out of a racing shop on
>their diff setups?  i've tried last week-end with subaru.  if people
>like "racecar engineering" can't get this information when the
>technology is covered in cobwebs, is it any surprise that reviews of
>last years wrc technology tells you nothing about tyres, springs/dampers
>and diffs?

Totally understand your discredit argument here.  Maybe you should read the
article first.  I am personally surprised that Bincliff was allowed to give
away anything.  Maybe the fact that awd will be banned has something to do
with it.  Occasionally we find the spider in the web.  Sometimes more than
audi would want us to know (insert double entendre).  Appreciate your thoughts
Dave.  Don't give up your real job for this consulting 'thing'.

>it's called competitive advantage scott....

I'm with you all the way dave.  When does/did that exactly 'exclude' Torsen
Center diffs?  From day 1 perhaps?   The way audi phrases it, it sure could
have been.  Lucky street drivers, us.

Scott Justusson
'87 5ktqwRS2
'84 Urq