RE: Torsen A6 Bite

[QSHIPQ@aol.com]

Todd writes:
>Ok,    I'll bite.  No Pun Intended. :-)  I've been reading the posts
>forever now.  I ownt offer my opinions as I dont have a type 44 (although
>I've driven quite a few) but I do drive a 96' A6 quite often.  It ahs a
>torsen but has EDL on both ends.  When the torsne thread first came round
>(a year or more ago??)  some thought that was why EDL was introduced was
>to rid the "bite"..  I said Cool, so the A6 ownt bite.  But now Scott???
>claims that at road America (I'm NOT discounting this)  But supposedly
>many Torsen equipped cars Including A4's got bitten.  These have EDL
r>ight??  And Brendans A4 got bitten at PP97??  Or was that a different
>event? Anyhow, so it seems that even EDL equipped cars are prone to it.

ABSOLUTELY.  Remember EDL is not always engaged.  So you have an open front 
and rear diff and a torsen.  Prone to bite.  I claim it is even with edl 
engaged, since edl is not a 4 wheel edl it's 2 and 2.

>Has anyone experienced Spider Bite in an A6/S4/S6 vehincle??  Or even an
>A8???Wondering if these cars are much less susceptible to it? 

I've driven an S6 on a dry track, and at steamboat, both times bitten.  In 
fact, the owner at steamboat had such a problem with it last year, he 
couldn't complete the course without stalling.  I rode with him, and the car 
would spin on the O moment (due to his LTO), but didn't push the clutch in, 
so the car rammed into the snowbank backwards.  I drove the car, and found 
the car much less controlled than a locked diff, even adjusting the driving 
style.  4wheel drifts were a challenge at best.

>   THe reason I ask is I drove the A6 all weekend last weekend.  We
>had plently of rain (ie...Low CF conditions) and I spent much time on dirt
>>roads.  Despite trying to duplicate it where I had open space to do so I
>cold not.  (Now, if I understand this bite right, I'll know when I get it,
>and I WONT want it to happen arond a corner with no Run Off Room.  RIGHT?)

Yup.  My conversations with those that have been bitten, is usually that the 
same comfortable predicatable conditions exist, then all of a sudden the car 
just "lost it".  

>That said, There are some deserted open corners I found to try it on.
>Uphill, downhill, Neutral throttle at the limit, Full Throttle through it
>with car fighting for grip, even trailing throttle or slamming throttle
>shut mid-corner and drifting.  But I never got the car to go into any sort
>of un-controllable behavior)  I even did a circle at full throttle skid
>pad style untill the car jsut started understeering and I had to back off
>for fear of going straight.  But it was jsut constant understeer.

Change the radius.  I watch Fred Kazinski at RA, put a full circle exercise, 
then plant an A4t on the cones and oversteered all the way around them.  All 
students looked to me for an explanation, knowing my spider bite position.  I 
just laughed some, and indicated that a fixed circle is a fun exercise, but 
hardly relevent to actual driving.  885140 indicates that what Freddy did was 
set up a circle where O rules.  

>Suddenly close throttle while doing this and the tail moves out a bit and
>closes circle but not uncontrollabley so.  

LTO.  Try it at a faster speed.  LTO *can* be uncontrollable.

>   Now, It seems that both fronts leading this argument are good
>drivers so that must not be it.  Probably better drivers than me  I'm no
>Shumacher but I'm decent and very comfortable in Low CF conditions.  Just
>wondering what I need to do t induce this thing.  I want to feel it.

Steamboat awaits you my friend.  Or come to RA in the rain.

>   Oh, and for what its worth, I think Jouko is right in his
>comments. on the TT Recall.  Maybe they should just send everyone to
>drivers school.  i doubt lift Throttle Oversteer or (lightly htting the
>brakes mid corner at 200kph)  can be justified as un-controllable ehavior.
>I be the boxter would go off track f you did this as well.  But who am I
>to say.  I'm not a professional) :-)

Hmmm.  Not sure all the facts would support your or Joukos conclusions.  I 
don't have enough seat time in a tt to give an answer.  But, audi only claims 
the "extreme" not that it isn't a valid concern (or the recall wouldn't 
exist).  If extreme means a tt driver can't go to a track event, I might 
propose your boxter (that goes to many track events) driver might have the 
unfair advantage.  My own thinking is that something is causing an 
"unpredictable" event, 'extreme' or no, and unlike the torsen bite scenario, 
this one has caused great concern by the drivers (buyers) and the company 
trying to present a sports car flagship with an "unfair advantage".  Where's 
those recalls on every other sports car?  Only on the MR2 turbo, and that was 
a running production change (sway bars and spring rates), not a recall.  In 
audis "extreme" case, we have BOTH a running production change (many of them 
in fact), AND a recall.

My thinking is that we are not being presented all the data, or even just 
both sides of the issue.  Regardless, this is a huge undertaking for what 
audi claims is "extreme" case handling.  Agreed?

My .02

Scott Justusson