Bump Starting

Sun Dec 1 13:26:32 EST 2002

Thanks for further edification on this circuit, Henry.  I replaced the
relay with one from my '86 parts car, and still no starter action, so I
guess my best wishes for an easy solution are dashed.

We're having a snowstorm today and possibly into tomorrow, so I'll probably
go over to the ski hill (where the car sits) Tuesday and try to tow start
it to at least get it home.

At 12:46 AM 12/01/2002 -0700, Henry A Harper III wrote:

>The starter solenoid terminals are so-labeled in Bentley, there is one that
>is 38/30 and one is 36/87.These numbers are probably on the terminal block,
>I believe that the 30 and 87 are part of the standard (ISO?) wiring
>labeling scheme; 30 is "hot" with +12V and 87 is switched by the relay with
>another pair of contacts. From the diagram this is a simple four-terminal
>relay (alam unit can interrupt starter function by not powering the relay
>coils), so by removing the relay and jumping a single wire from the 38/30
>terminal to the 36/87 terminal you would eliminate the control authority of
>the anti-theft unit. I suppose it's possible the anti-theft control unit
>might get angry if you don't jump the other pair of (control) terminals for
>the relay, to give it a ground path. But in theory, to get the starter to
>work regardless of the alarm's status you only need the one wire jumper.
>
>HTH
>Henry
>
>On Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:46 PM, Kneale Brownson
>[SMTP:knotnook at traverse.com] wrote:
> > Thanks, again, Henry.  So if I have another 332 014 156 relay around that
>
> > MIGHT fix the current problem?  If not, I'd use two separate wire loops
> > with spade connectors on the ends to make the jumpers you suggest?
> >
> > At 06:48 PM 11/30/2002 -0700, Henry A Harper III wrote:
> >
> > >Ah, relay #8 is described in Bentley as the "anti-theft relay" - it
>would
> > >be supposed to prevent you from starting the car after the alarm was
> > >activated, looks like the starter solenoid activation track does run
> > >through it from the ignition switch. Looks like you could remove relay
>#8
> > >and jumper terminal 38/30 to terminal 36/87 if you want to remove the
> > >anti-theft system's control over the starter. (vol 3, page 537) The
> > >lock-out-all-other-things-during-starter-operation relay is also known
>as
> > >the load reduction relay, it is #5 underhood. That one just happens to
> > >power a lot of things (headlights, horn, etc.) and just it isn't turned
>on
> > >when the key is in start position.
> > >
> > >Henry
> > >
> > >On Saturday, November 30, 2002 5:20 PM, Kneale Brownson
> > >[SMTP:knotnook at traverse.com] wrote:
> > > > Thanks, Henry.  Perhaps I misunderstood Audi's labeling of the relay
>in
> > > > Position 8 of the underhood relay/fuse box.  Relay Part # 332 014 156
>is
> > > > called something like "starter lock-out".  Maybe its purpose is to
>lock
> > >out
> > > > all other electrical functions during starter use and it doesn't
>prevent
> > > > the starter itself from operating????
> > > >
> > > > At 02:56 PM 11/30/2002 -0700, Henry A Harper III wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I don't think there is such a relay on our (VW-Audi) cars. The
>ignition
> > > > >switch is designed to only allow one start actuation per off->run
>cycle
> > > > >(it's spring-loaded). If you can turn off the ignition and turn the
>key
> > > > >back to start before the engine stops, or not quite release the key
>all
> > >the
> > > > >way in the run position and hit start again, I think you could get
>some
> > > > >expensive-sounding grinding noises.
> > > > >
> > > > >HTH
> > > > >Henry Harper
> > > > >http://www.henry-harper.com  hah at alumni.rice.edu
> > > > >1991 200 quattro, 116k
> > > > >1988 GTI 16v, 233k
> > > > >
> > > > >On Saturday, November 30, 2002 11:29 AM, Kneale Brownson
> > > > >[SMTP:knotnook at traverse.com] wrote:
> > > > > > I didn't try a jump start because in the past, when the battery
>has
> > >not
> > > > > > been up to spark potential,  the starter solenoid would click or
> > > > > > something.  I'm getting no indication the "start" command is
>going
> > >from
> > > > >the
> > > > > > ignition key to the starter.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Would the lock-out relay (the one that won't let you activate the
> > >starter
> > > > > > while the engine is running) cause the symptoms I've got?  Is one
>of
> > >the
> > > > > > relays under the dash a potential suspect?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 09:17 AM 11/30/2002 -0500, Ingo Rautenberg wrote:
> > > > > > >Kneale,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Don't know how things turned out, but I wouldn't hesitate with
>the
> > >bump
> > > > > > >starting, especially considering the dual cats and Motronic
>(maybe
> > >I'm
> > > > >just
> > > > > > >crazy ;-) .  So nothing changed when you attempted a jump start?
> > > > >  Curious.
> > > > > > >These cars are tough on batteries and even one that's slightly
> > > > >discharged or
> > > > > > >has a bad cell can "appear" to be good.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Keep us appraised.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Ingo
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > >From: "Kneale Brownson" <knotnook at traverse.com>
> > > > > > >To: <200q20v at audifans.com>
> > > > > > >Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 2:43 PM
> > > > > > >Subject: Bump Starting
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I was thinking of bumpstarting my 200q20v with the
>nonresponsive
> > > > >starter
> > > > > > >to
> > > > > > > > get it home to work on, but the Bentley warns against doing
>that.
> > > > >  Says
> > > > > > > > it's not good for the catalytic converter and "might damage
>other
> > > > > > > > parts".  I could see how a bunch of raw gas going into the
>cat
> > > > >wouldn't be
> > > > > > > > good for it, but my car was running great before I parked it,
>so
> > >I'd
> > > > >think
> > > > > > > > it would fire right up with just a couple turnovers via the
>gear
> > > > > > > > train.  What else might get damaged?  I'm thinking of towing
>at
> > >just
> > > > >a
> > > > > > > > couple miles an hour and letting the clutch out in fourth
>gear.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > >
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> >